Civil Liberties Restoration

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As part of our downsizing, my wife and I will be renters for the next few years. Having not rented since the early 80's, I was stunned to find out that it's routine for landlords to run full criminal background checks of prospective tenants, and they pretty much state that a felony conviction is a disqualifying factor.

A recent news piece highlighted the difficulty convicted felons have when trying to find a job, many employers simply won't take a chance on them.

I'm not really sure where I'd draw the line on restoration of all civil rights once the debt is payed but it sure seems like society is setting itself up for a problem when someone who "graduated" can't find a place to live, can't find a job, can't vote, can't even be near guns and ammo, can't, can't, can't. The chances of someone in this predicament, albeit self-inflicted, breaking through and becoming a productive, law-abiding citizen seems slim to me.
 
I guess you're saying SINCE criminals are being released early, or unduly (still criminal minded), we have no better option than to (try to) restrict his freedom, correct? I get that, but it still comes back to the fact that the criminal minded don't care about whatever restriction they're being placed under (that's not meant to be argumentative, it's just true and also an unneeded alternative.....which brings us back to your point).
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That's correct, also the fact that the criminal minded do not care about the restrictions that exist may well help put them back in the prison where they should still be if those restrictions are left in place.
But you get the idea, I'm all for what red wing said "once the charged criminal debts are totally paid, and all probation accounted for, then all civil rights should be restored, including firearms,jury duty and voting."
I just don't think we're at that place as a country where we can do that, because the qualifiers haven't been met more times than not.



I'm not really sure where I'd draw the line on restoration of all civil rights once the debt is payed but it sure seems like society is setting itself up for a problem when someone who "graduated" can't find a place to live, can't find a job, can't vote, can't even be near guns and ammo, can't, can't, can't. The chances of someone in this predicament, albeit self-inflicted, breaking through and becoming a productive, law-abiding citizen seems slim to me.
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And this so true, people get out and have this record that prevents them from being able to function as a normal citizen. For the ones that have paid in full, and are "reformed" they are doomed to failure in a real way. It sad and it needs to be fixed but when the recidivism rate is nearly 70% most that get out shouldn't be, let's fix that then work on fixing the process for the truely deserving.
 
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"Deep South", I think we're on the same page (just different paragraphs maybe :)).

I agree with your last comment and personally know several people (one I still call a good friend), who have experienced the very real problem of "2nd class citizenry". He's a friend from back in our wild days who just ended up a little more wild than I was (grandma prayers worked and I eventually grew up before doing anything too stupid). But he made some very bad decisions and ended up in trouble. He's 55yrs old now and has been clean, sober, and a Christian family man for many years now. But not before getting caught in the vicious cycle of trying to "go straight" - can't catch a break, for all the reasons stated earlier (can't rent, can't work, can't drive, etc.). After eventually turning to God, and breaking some old habits, a church member mentored him and pulled ALLOT of strings (& $) to help in most of his "restrictions", and the guy just took off like a rocket! With his job (that He wouldn't have had without the mentor) now going good, and a new (somewhat) restricted driver's license, he met a good woman (now wife), and now himself mentors troubled youth. THIS guy should absolutely have every single God given right fully restored in my opinion.

And he's the kind of person I had in mind when starting the thread because like you said (roughly), the undeserving of civil rights are just going to end up right back where they should be...behind bars. At least the way the system is now anyway. My friend is an example of someone who, if there was an opportunity to prove ones self and become a productive member of society, would take advantage of it and redeem themselves. While the truly unreachable/unrepentant thugs wouldn't even seek to benefit from the restored liberties....it's a heart thing that's for sure.
 
people get out and have this record that prevents them from being able to function as a normal citizen. For the ones that have paid in full, and are "reformed" they are doomed to failure in a real way. It sad and it needs to be fixed but when the recidivism rate is nearly 70% most that get out shouldn't be, let's fix that then work on fixing the process for the truely deserving.
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I agree, Deep South!
 
^ I carried there in 2009. No metal detectors, no guards , just walk right in and sit right down, baby let you mind roll on! :D Wonderful glass and chandeliers! :cool:

I cannot wait to go back. And downtown Olympia was 1972 revisited! Hippies,homeless and helpless. But even though, still cool! :)
 
DeepSouth said:
I think a huge part of the problem is the term "paid their debt"

Who gets say when the debt is paid? What does that really even mean?
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Who? The courts get to say that when they levy the sentence for any given conviction. Those are the terms of the court for every case.

"You've been convicted of felony larceny. You have been sentenced to two years in prison."

Upon completion of the punishment imposed by the courts, THE DEBT IS PAID in my opinion.

If there is to be MORE, then it should be in the sentencing. For example, a person who is convicted of criminal sexual assault may be placed in a sexual offender registry. THAT goes on beyond any prison sentencing.
 
"Deep South", I think we're on the same page (just different paragraphs maybe :)).

I agree with your last comment and personally know several people (one I still call a good friend), who have experienced the very real problem of "2nd class citizenry". He's a friend from back in our wild days who just ended up a little more wild than I was (grandma prayers worked and I eventually grew up before doing anything too stupid). But he made some very bad decisions and ended up in trouble. He's 55yrs old now and has been clean, sober, and a Christian family man for many years now. But not before getting caught in the vicious cycle of trying to "go straight" - can't catch a break, for all the reasons stated earlier (can't rent, can't work, can't drive, etc.). After eventually turning to God, and breaking some old habits, a church member mentored him and pulled ALLOT of strings (& $) to help in most of his "restrictions", and the guy just took off like a rocket! With his job (that He wouldn't have had without the mentor) now going good, and a new (somewhat) restricted driver's license, he met a good woman (now wife), and now himself mentors troubled youth. THIS guy should absolutely have every single God given right fully restored in my opinion.

And he's the kind of person I had in mind when starting the thread because like you said (roughly), the undeserving of civil rights are just going to end up right back where they should be...behind bars. At least the way the system is now anyway. My friend is an example of someone who, if there was an opportunity to prove ones self and become a productive member of society, would take advantage of it and redeem themselves. While the truly unreachable/unrepentant thugs wouldn't even seek to benefit from the restored liberties....it's a heart thing that's for sure.
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I hear you, it does happen and in cases like your friend it is truly ashame an embarrassment that we the people let it happen. It needs to be fixed, when people get out they deserve a equal chance and currently they have very little chance..BUT only people like your friend need to be getting out, and well...you know where I'm going :uhoh:

I think most of us would agree there are two problems, I am just very admit about which one we have to fix first. In our pro 2A environment the first problem is easy to overlook because our passion is in people like your friend and we how he has been wronged with more than just 2A rights.... Unfortunately, he is more the exception than the rule.


Honestly, I think almost everyone here agrees. Some of us (like myself) are poor communicators and as a result others haven't completly understood the reasons for our "opposition" (useing that word loosely)

Anyway, I definitely understand where your coming from.
 
As a Libertarian I agree with the O.P. However as a retired career corrections official with 20 years in "The Big House" along with parole and other community programs and a couple of college degrees the reality is far different.

Most felons have had multiple encounters with the police and courts. There is much disagreement about the causes of criminal behavior among my peers which is outside of the discussion of THR. However criminal behavior does not end when a person is locked up and there are several real life reasons for not allowing them to legally own a firearm.
 
Although I have no felonies, I believe ANYONE convicted of ANYTHING should have full restoration of ALL rights after having "paid their debt to society". After all, a debt paid should be paid indeed and paid in-full. In my opinion, if you pay your debt only to be released back into society as a "sub-class" citizen, then you are STILL being punished (for the rest your life). To me, that's a life sentence.
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I will disagree with the blanketed statement. I do support a legal process to have rights restored, but not automatically for simply serving your time. The reason being that even maximum sentences aren't always enough to keep likley re-offenders locked up for the duration of the threat. For example, many sex crimes such as rape or molestation involve a mental component that never goes away. Nobody would want a convicted child molestor hanging around their children after he served his 5 year sentence, so release usually comes with conditions about contact with children. Someone who serves 15 years for forcible violent rape should proabbly never see his gun rights after he gets out. For that matter, there are a lot of people out walking around who are convicted killers who have "served their time". In the 80's, the average length of prison for murder was 7 years. I'm sure its much higher now, they still walk among us.
 
I will disagree with the blanketed statement. I do support a legal process to have rights restored, but not automatically for simply serving your time. The reason being that even maximum sentences aren't always enough to keep likley re-offenders locked up for the duration of the threat. For example, many sex crimes such as rape or molestation involve a mental component that never goes away. Nobody would want a convicted child molestor hanging around their children after he served his 5 year sentence, so release usually comes with conditions about contact with children. Someone who serves 15 years for forcible violent rape should probably never see his gun rights after he gets out. For that matter, there are a lot of people out walking around who are convicted killers who have "served their time". In the 80's, the average length of prison for murder was 7 years. I'm sure its much higher now, they still walk among us.
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Good points, TimSr, but where do we draw the lines?
 
Redwind, It is impossible to write a set of rules or standards that fits every case. Judges hate things like madatory min or max sentences because those mandtories don't always fit the case in front of them. This is why courts have discretion in things like sentencing and probation, whether it be inplace of or in addition to time to be served. The lost of certain rights should be part of the court system, whether it be specificed in sentencing, and / or re-evaluated in a hearing before or upon release, or some time afterwards.
 
^At least you are open minded about these serious issues. I appreciate that. Others here, not so much.

Things happen. Mistakes happen. Trespasses happen. Never to forgive on the smallest of issues and to lose your Civil Rights forever is plain wrong and un-American.
 
Something to think about for those of you who support full restoration of all of a felons rights after he/she completes their sentence.

Suppose each time the felon is released from prison he comes over to your house and steals from you and your property is never recovered.

The law assigns a cash value on your property. The Courts don't care or assign value based on your emotional attachment to the property.

Each time the felon steals from you and others he gets caught, convicted and sent to prison (which is very common). Do you still support of all of his rights after he has stolen from you on multiple occasions, has taken items of special value or meaning never to be returned to you and will most likely steal from you again?
 
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Felons, violent crime....

I'm a bit surprised some of the forum members seem to be so lax or carefree about convicted felons. :uhoh:
I disagree that "most" convicts leave prison then never commit another offense. :rolleyes:

Prisons are full of gang members, registered sex offenders, deranged or mentally ill, illegal aliens(non residents on deportation status), etc.
Do you think these ex cons get out then skip down the lane? :confused:

Some felons do go straight or clean up which is great but don't be naive to think all felons or parolees are little angels or productive, upstanding citizens.
 
RustyShackelford said:
I'm a bit surprised some of the forum members seem to be so lax or carefree about convicted felons. :uhoh:
I disagree that "most" convicts leave prison then never commit another offense. :rolleyes:

Prisons are full of gang members, registered sex offenders, deranged or mentally ill, illegal aliens(non residents on deportation status), etc.
Do you think these ex cons get out then skip down the lane? :confused:

Some felons do go straight or clean up which is great but don't be naive to think all felons or parolees are little angels or productive, upstanding citizens.
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I've thought about this a bit over the decades.

The problem with bad guys in general, stupid people who make dumb mistakes, and our criminal justice system overall, is not a simple issue which can be so clearly and concisely dealt with on the simplistic level that many people would like it to be. It can't be because the whole issue can't even be defined on simplistic terms.

There are bad guys who are pathologically bad. There are bad guys who are simple screw-ups. And there are bad guys who simply made poor decisions or whose circumstances were tragically oriented.

And then there's the criminal justice system and legal system which attempts to treat all punitive resolution on a relatively "equal" basis (within the law) and deals out consequences for those convicted of certain acts.

And then there's society as a whole who, after dealing with these people, has supported a system which makes it exceedingly difficult for a convicted person who has "served his time" to return to a productive life within society afterwards.

So the whole system is actually designed to maintain a criminal element.

This is an objective observation, mind you...it has no bearing on whether or not I think the criminal system ought to be harsh or lenient.

I'm of the opinion that there are bad guys who are just that...BAD. And they're not likely to ever change for a variety of reasons.

I'm also of the opinion that there are people who screw up for one reason or another and who honestly just want to fix themselves and get on with their lives.

But for a variety of very real and practical obstacles, we don't do a very good job of resolving the differences in how we handle these people. So the end result is we get a significant portion of those simple screw-ups who also get added to the "repeat offenders" as a result.


Do I have an answer? Nope.

Do I have opinions? Oh, yeah. For example:

- I believe that some crimes do, indeed, warrant the death penalty.

- I believe that there are some crimes where, if a person can't honestly be considered to be safe in society, then he shouldn't ever be free for that.

- I believe that ex-post facto laws (and we DO have them, even if we've managed to somehow "justify" them) are BS and shouldn't ever be allowed.

- I believe that some penalties for non-violent crimes are stupid and excessive.

- I believe that there really ought to be a rehabilitative factor designed to give some convicted people training and skills they need to help enable them to be successful, productive citizens when they get out.

- I believe that there are some people who fully deserve to have a variety of rights fully restored following completion of their sentencing terms.

- I believe that there is no reason why hardened criminals serving long prison sentences cannot otherwise be servants of the public while serving their time.


Their ain't no simple solution...but while I'm definitely not some soft-hearted weenie when it comes to criminals, I do believe that we can do better.
 
I feel that anyone who has never been convicted of a violent crime should have to fight to have their rights restored! They should never be taken away! People that commit violent crimes should be treated different. The problem lies withend the system itself! The courts have become a common place to lie! No one is ever prosecuted for perjury. And the plea bargain system is not a system that was ever fair for anyone! Just a fast track of justice, away to save money, but not to seek out justice! This is an important issue & I applaud the mod.s for letting it continue! This is something we should be doing something about, as it is a threat to our freedom & safety.
 
So the whole system is actually designed to maintain a criminal element
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While this is some disagreement with part of your comments this is a very insightful observation.

It is a mistake to say that criminals are stupid. When I was taking pre-law classes one of my professors told a story about something his Dad to taught him.

His dad was a very successful attorney and when my Professor was a child he took him to a State Prison. Back in the 1930’s prisons were what is called a bird cage design…multitier with rows of barred cells.

His dad asked him why he thought the prisoners were in prison. He said because they were bad people. His dad replied “No they are here because they were not smart enough to hire a good lawyer.”

Crime is America is very profitable. It usually is your poorly educated street thug or drug addict that ends up in prison after multiple other convictions. Consider how much better felons in Federal Prison that are convicted of white collar crimes are treated while in prison. Anyone believe Martha Stewart had to do any hard time, had any real restricitions or manual labor?
 
Crime is America is very profitable. It usually is your poorly educated street thug or drug addict that ends up in prison after multiple other convictions. Consider how much better felons in Federal Prison that are convicted of white collar crimes are treated while in prison. Anyone believe Martha Stewart had to do any hard time, had any real restrictions or manual labor?
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If you consider being locked up every night at 10 a restriction, and setting the tables and washing the dishes manual labor, Martha had to undergo that "ordeal". :D
.
I knew a women back in 1990's who a made a severe error,committing the crime of embezzlement, while working at a Federal bank. She was sent to Alderson, West Virginia Federal Prison for 18 months.

She blew a really fine career. But prison changed her and she regained her footing. I heard from her that the 18 months was a breeze; light duty,minimum visitors and boring days, reading paperbacks sent by friends.

Martha followed her to Alderson about 10 years later, but the routine remains about the same.

Here is Forbes list of Americas 10 Cushiest prisons. Alderson, an all women's joint, is #1.

An entertaining read.

It’s looking like a lifetime sentence at one of the nation’s cushiest prisons for world-class fraudster Bernard Madoff. The record-setting scammer is reportedly on his way to the Federal Correctional Complex at Butner, N.C. It’s no Club Fed–the U.S. Bureau of Prisons’ minimum-security camps, which are the easiest places to do federal time, are only for offenders with 10 years or less on their sentences. Bernie’s is for 150.
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BSA1 said:
As a Libertarian I agree with the O.P. However as a retired career corrections official with 20 years in "The Big House" along with parole and other community programs and a couple of college degrees the reality is far different.

Most felons have had multiple encounters with the police and courts. There is much disagreement about the causes of criminal behavior among my peers which is outside of the discussion of THR. However criminal behavior does not end when a person is locked up and there are several real life reasons for not allowing them to legally own a firearm.
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Very libertarian minded here also. I get it when you say "...not allowing them to legally own a firearm". But, the premise is wrong....it's a catch-22...only the LAW ABIDING are going to care about legality in the first place. The criminal it's just that, a criminal, and he will obtain his weapons on the street at a fraction of the price, or just steal them himself, or any number of other avenues.....but he wouldn't go the "legal" route even if it was possible, not on your life would he do that.

So who is left for the law to effect? The one who gives a damn about the rule of law.

I'm one of those law abiding citizens (who's never hurt a single innocent person, much less shot anyone), so I carry a bp revolver in order to be compliant with the laws, but the gang member just let out early will absolutely NOT be limiting himself to a bp pistol...he'll have the most devastating thing he can find.

No "gun law" has ever saved one life........because it can't.
Prohibition only makes criminals of NON-criminals.....nothing else.
 
Stewart, background....

first, Martha Stewart was rail-roaded IMO.
:mad:
Honestly she could have fought(and more than likely won) her federal charges but she & her lawyers felt a stint in prison would be faster/cheaper in the long run.
FWIW: The main US Secret Service agent/investigator in her federal case was later charged with evidence tampering & gross misconduct. :rolleyes:

As for the US prison system, I agree to a extent. There are poor or uneducated people who get caught up in the life or get charged with things because they were easy to catch.
I sat on my county's special homicide/high profile grand jury in 2005/2006. We were selected by the State Atty(a former sheriff & SE Asia combat veteran) & had murders, violent crimes.
Some of these suspects were in a bad situation & killed out of panic but a few were cold, uncaring, psychopathic or just evil. :eek:

Id add that PBS News Hour this weekend will run a media item on felons who get civil rights restored. Check PBS listings for times.
 
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