Clayton Cramer on Homosexuals, the National Guard, and the 2d Amendment

Status
Not open for further replies.
Joined
Jun 3, 2006
Messages
572
Link: http://www.claytoncramer.com/weblog/2006_08_27_archive.html#115699741198720987

Wednesday, August 30, 2006


Interesting Dilemma For California Gun Control Advocates

A reader, who has done some very interesting work in the history of how the "well-regulated militia" clause of the Second Amendment has been interpreted by the courts, points out that SB 1441, which bans sexual orientation discrimination in California government funded programs, has an interesting side effect and conflict with existing law.

Some years back, a homosexual California National Guardsman decided to challenge "Don't Ask, Don't Tell," arguing that California law prohibited discrimination based on sexual orientation. In Holmes v. California National Guard (9th Cir. 1997), the 9th Circuit upheld discharge of Holmes from employment that could be called into federal duty. (Something that you may not know--the National Guard is only under federal control and direction when called into duty; the rest of the time, the National Guard is under state authority as militia.) Holmes was transferred to duties that, I presume, were only state militia--and eventually separated from even that service, because he wasn't eligible for federal service because of his sexual orientation.

So what happens now? If SB 1441 is enforced, California may no longer fund any part of the National Guard that is subject to federal call-up--and I think you could make an interesting case that California may not fund any activity associated with the National Guard for that reason.

So what makes this "interesting" with respect to gun control? Gun control advocates for a very long time have argued that the Second Amendment doesn't protect an individual right--only the right of the states to regulate their own militia organizations. As my friend J. Norman Heath points out:


Has Congress created an "unconstitutional condition" on a state prerogative?

Depends in part on whether the state has a right to define militia enrollment.

If California cannot define militia enrollment free from Congressional interference, then California cannot bring its citizens under the protection of the Second Amendment RKBA, as that right has been interpreted. I.e. the state would have no area of protected authority under the Second Amendment.

Conversely, if the Second Amendment protects the power of the state to arm citizens as militia, then it protects the power of California to enroll homosexuals in the militia regardless of federal law.

It would also protect the power of Idaho to enroll everybody from 16 to 99 years old, and the power of Rhode Island to enroll quadraplegics and felons, etc.

So we'd end up with 50 different militias that would have to be integrated in case of a national emergency, which is exactly what the Framers did NOT want when they wrote the Constitution, and why they delegated the militia powers.

Why, in 1789, would Madison have re-opened the issue of militia powers and written an amendment that allowed the states to define militia enrollment? Why compromise the federal power to "organize and arm" the militia?

If gun control advocates really believe their claim about what the Second Amendment protects--the right of the states to organize militias--than they could argue in the inevitable lawsuits trying to resolve the discrepancy between SB 1441 and California funding of the National Guard that the Second Amendment guarantees the states the right to organize the militia. If they do so, they'll lose, based on the existing precedents, as Mr. Heath's law review article above points out--and the gun control advocate claim about what the Second Amendment protects will be dead.

posted by Clayton at 9:49 PM




News Blackout?

I received a fairly upset email about California Governor Schwarzenegger signing SB 1441, a bill that prohibits discrimination based on sexual orientation in any government-funded program or activity. I decided to try and find out more about SB 1441--but the mainstream news media seem to be ignoring it. When I entered "SB 1441" in Google's news search engine, there were 17 articles--and all but one of them were from either gay newspapers or advocacy groups, or Christian newspapers or advocacy groups. The one exception was a column a bit more than two weeks old by liberal columnist Dan Walters of the Sacramento Bee, and it only mentioned SB 1441 tangentially.

Whether you think this is a good law or a bad law, it is a pretty significant event--and one deserved to be covered. If SB 1441 reflects the wishes of a majority of Californians (which I find unlikely), then they should know about it, shouldn't they?

The text of the bill in the form that passed into law is here. The official legislative analysis of the effects are here, and don't sound all that dramatic. But what constitutes "any program or activity conducted, operated, administered, or funded by the state or any state agency"? To hear some tell it, this will be the end of any funding of any Christian social welfare agency (such as that which ended New York City assistance to the Salvation Army's efforts some years ago), or the use of California State Scholarships at Christian colleges.

Now, liberals doubtless think this is a good thing--if they had their way, there wouldn't be any Christian organizations in existence anywhere in California. But I think there's at least an arguable case that this law, by imposing a standard that is contrary to the religious beliefs of individuals and organizations, is contrary to the First Amendment's guarantee of freedom of religious worship.

For example, let's say that Mississippi passed a law that prohibited use of state funds by any organization that discriminated against pork-eating. The grounds might be that pork is a perfectly safe food, and such discrimination is irrational and contrary to the best economic interests of Mississippi's pork industry. You know that the ACLU would file suit in a flash, claiming that this pork-eater anti-discrimination law, by depriving Jewish or Muslim organizations of an equal shot at applying for Mississippi grants, was a violation of the freedom of religious worship. You could even make a case (quite a bit weaker of a case), that this was a violation of the establishment clause as well, because it put organizations that don't discriminate against pork-eaters at an unfair advantage.

Not all of those organizations that get this unfair advantage are religiously based, of course. The ACLU, for example, has no problem with pork-eaters. It is also true that there are non-religious organizations on the other side that would be similarly injured, such as People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals. Still, would there be any serious question as to the effect (and likely intent) of such a law?

posted by Clayton at 6:03 PM
 
Holy. Crap.

OK. This is wild.

What we've got to do is, convince some member of the Pink Pistols to join the California National Guard and bring this to a head.

Muuuuuaaahahahaahahaha!
 
From Art I Sec. 8 of the Constitution:

To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress

It seems like "training the militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress" might cover some pretty broad ground that could include the prohibition on homosexuals. On the other hand, the authority to reserve to the states the appointment of officers would seem to help the case that Cramer suggests.
 
It seems like "training the militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress" might cover some pretty broad ground that could include the prohibition on homosexuals.
Undoubtedly, except one never knows with the Ninth short-circuit.

In Heath's article under section titled, VIII.The Concrete Effects of Militia Preemption, it refers to the MA legislature refraining from enrolling
blacks into the militia because it would have violated federal regulations.
Advocates of black militia enrollment were not able to muster a legally-credible response to the argument that state authority in this area had been federally preempted, since it was plain to everyone that Congress held the power to 'organize, arm, and discipline' the militia, and had legally exercised

What I don't think Heath was aware of is that St. George Tucker had the same opinion:
This was the case under the laws of the state; but the act of 2 Cong. c. 33, for establishing an uniform militia throughout the United States, seems to have excluded all but free white men from bearing arms in the militia.
The comments referring to the above footnote are:
Free negroes and mulattoes are by our constitution excluded from the right of suffrage, and by consequence, I apprehend, from office too: they were formerly incapable of serving in the militia, except as drummers or pioneers, but of late years I presume they were enrolled in the lists of those that bear arms.
 
Gunsmith, it all means that the state's may not be free to decide for themselves the various classes of people who may serve in their militia's if the federal government has legislated in that area. For example, if the federal government says that only straight-white boys between the ages of 18-40 may enroll in the militia, then that's it. No blacks, lesbian comanches, etc.

With the possible exception of non-qualifying officers, but those officers may not be able to participate in the militia when called into service by the national govt (I'd have to look-up that technicality), but that's rather ancillary to this discussion.

Is that clearer?
 
Let's see if I can translate.

There are two competing views on the 2nd Amendment (what it's about).

"Our side" views it as an individual right. Also known as the "Standard Model". The scholarship behind this view is now overwhelmingly on our side, even stuff by raging liberals that don't LIKE their own research such as Akhil Reed Amar, Yale law professor and author of the 1998 book "The Bill Of Rights".

"Their side" (the gun grabbers) say instead that the 2nd Amendment ensures the right of states to form their own state militias.

IF "their side" is correct regarding the second amendment, then states have a right to form militias in their own fashion. And according to this bill Ahnuld just signed into law, discrimination against gays is illegal for any STATE agency.

So: if an openly gay dude tries to sign up for the California National Guard and gets denied, he can sue the state under this new anti-discrimination California law. The ONLY way he could lose would be for the state to admit that the California National Guard is more or less a sham, that it really operates under Federal law.

And the moment they go and argue THAT and win...well hell, the whole "state militia equals national guard in each state" line of bulldroppings just collapsed.

Leaving only one possible interpretation of the 2nd left.

Ours.

Let's be clear what I'm saying: there's a ton of case law in California (both state Supreme court and 9th Circuit Federal court) that says the 2nd isn't an individual right.

In theory, if a gay guy is now denied access to the national guard, all that case law vanishes as it was chained to a faulty proposition. The instant the gay dude is thrown out of court (and the California national guard), WE GET OUR 2ND AMENDMENT RIGHTS BACK.

In theory.
 
And the moment they go and argue THAT and win...well hell, the whole "state militia equals national guard in each state" line of bulldroppings just collapsed.

Leaving only one possible interpretation of the 2nd left.

Ours.
If one takes the time to read Heath's article, there already is a conflict between militia and 2nd Amendment jurisprudence. The irony/contradictions simply haven't registered. This issue is stricly federal pre-emption versus state mlitia regulation and is not a 2A issue except for the contradicton that Jim points out. However as stated, that contradiction has existed for some time now and is ignored by most scholars and jurists.

Edited to add:

The strict state's right thing is dead anyways, except in the 9th short-circuit. I don't think there are any "scholars" left promoting that cause. There is a "new" anti-IR argument, but I won't rehash it here. One can get a taste of it by reading the Appellee's brief in the Parker case, which is a topic of an ever growing thread on this forum.

What my edit means is that regardless of how the court rules, militia jurisprudence would not be in conflict with the latest anti-IR theory.
 
The strict state's right thing is dead anyways, except in the 9th short-circuit

The Ninth Circuit is not the only circuit holding to the old collective right model:

The majority of circuits still have this as valid case law and controlling within their jurisdictions.

A few have more of a hybrid-militia-relationship test (which always ends up with the same result as the collective right model), and

one circuit, the Fifth, has declared the Second Amendment to protect an individual right (even if it is a right that may be "infringed" by the particular law at issue in the case).

Just wanted to clear the air.
 
Ahhhh. Lovely! Last I knew, there were no few likely lesbian comanches well-trained in martial arts who might consider this!

Most interesting. Time to mail a few letters, spread the news.
 
In theory, if a gay guy is now denied access to the national guard, all that case law vanishes as it was chained to a faulty proposition. The instant the gay dude is thrown out of court (and the California national guard), WE GET OUR 2ND AMENDMENT RIGHTS BACK.

In theory.

Unfortunately the handful of conservative Republicans you guys have left in California will think you're trying to gayify the California National Guard and fight it.


Neeto idea, of course it could backfire and work its way up to the supreme court where they could decide that the fed.gov can't discriminate against gays and your test case guy gets into the CNG ... and the anti's argument just gets a little reinforcement.
 
This article is dumb because no serious constitutional scholar has ever suggested that the antis are even partly correct. Authority over the militia is completely outlined in Article 1 and there are numerous cases from the early 19th century that clarified their meaning to exhaustion. The 2nd amendment is only tangentially about the militia- so far as both reference arms-bearing citizens.

All of these early cases came to the same conclusion- that Article 1 empowers CONGRESS to regulate the militia, not the states. And not a single militia case raises the 2nd amendment as a counterargument. Even MODERN militia cases dont raise the 2nd as a counterargument to congressional authority over the militia.
 
All of these early cases came to the same conclusion- that Article 1 empowers CONGRESS to regulate the militia, not the states. And not a single militia case raises the 2nd amendment as a counterargument. Even MODERN militia cases dont raise the 2nd as a counterargument to congressional authority over the militia.
Gosh, we agree on something Beerslurpy! :)
 
Dont get your hopes up guys. I expect for this matter to be resolved with some fancy magic trick from SCOTUS :scrutiny: .
 
Ok now that I am thouroughly confused I think I can post something, read this twice and the comments. Basically if the openly gay person wants to join the national guard california and they deny that person based on sexual preference then he can sue and WIN and what happens then? All the STATES right stuff goes to hell right?

My only question for this whole thing is how does this affect my gun rights in the PRK and would it just be easier if California was removed from the union and given back to mexico?
 
Has anyone read the book A Well-Regulated Militia: The Founding Fathers and the Origins of Gun Control in America
by Saul Cornell?

It deals with states right of a militia VS individual rights to bear arms. I haven't read it but I wonder if the author is biased or not because I don't know...in fact I don't even know if it is a pro or anti book at all.

But all a state would have to do to preserve our right to bear arms then would be to define a militia as anyone who goes and gets a State Militia License? Wouldn't that be something lol. Then we could take that to the courts for out right to repeal the NFA. HAHAHA...wishful thinking I know.
 
Outaws:

Saul Cornell is paid by the viciously anti-gun Joyce Foundation to chair the sham 2nd Amdnt research center.

His book seeks to obfuscate the issue in service to the forces of organized gun bigotry by creating a "new" model which he calls "a civic right", which is simply a 45 degree spin on the collective right model.

http://www.thehighroad.org/search.php?searchid=1693881

http://www.google.com/search?client...aul+Cornell"&sourceid=opera&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8

http://www.google.com/search?client...aul+Cornell"&sourceid=opera&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8
 
Thats interesting.

I read this one. You linked to it in another thread.
http://guncite.com/journals/CornellCommon.pdf

Its a very good read. Most won't like it, but its still a good read, and I highly recommend it to anyone who likes to hear other sides of issues to at least know what is happening on the other side.

My favorite part is at the very bottom on page 25 (of the PDF file, 245 of the text):

Rather than view the right to bear arms as an expression of a right to resistance, it would be far more accurate to see the language of both the Pennsylvania state consitution and the federal consitution as part of an effort to provide the state with a means to crush such resistance.

I realize that many people had different views even back then, and I am sure some people maybe even have seen it as that, I doubt the framers saw it that way. But since he talks a lot of about peoples frame of mind back then, here are two little quote from Thomas Jefferson...I think they give a good insight into his frame of mind.

Thomas Jefferson, letter to Col. William S. Smith, 1787
The tree of Liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants. God forbid we should ever be twenty years without such rebellion; what country can preserve its liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms!

Gee those really sound like someone who wanted to protect the state from the people more-so than the other way around. :D :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:
 
Last edited:
I cannot even begin to comment on what the hell they are trying to say in all of that.


To me, it is very simple... The second amendment clearly states that ", the RIGHT OF THE PEOPLE to keep and bear arms SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED."

Pretty simple if you ask me. The amendment has two separate thoguhts, separated by a comma. The well organized militia is necessary to a free state, and then the people have a right to be armed.

Maybe I am over simplifying things?
 
the "National Guard" is NOT the Militia.

It's a part of the well-regulated militia. Once a member of a State Guard unit is ordered into active military service of the United States, that person is no longer under the command of, or serving, a State Guard unit (until they are relieved from federal service), but is then a member of the army. (See the Supreme Court case Perpich v. Department of Defense, 496 U.S. 334 (1990) for a brief but good explanation of the evolution of the National Guard statutes.) (http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/cgi-bin/getcase.pl?court=US&vol=496&invol=334)
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top