Clergy: What & How do you carry

[IMTHDUKE]

I am pastor of a small country church that is right on a main highway. After church shootings, I had some of our men bring up their concern for security. It's not going to get better in terms of security at any place, and some are prime targets. If I was a nut case, I would prefer to take on a place I expected to be defenseless.

I have not carried at church, but I have no problem with those who do.

 

[JR1]

Another pastor here. Unfortunately it is illegal in AR to carry inside of a house of worship of any kind. That being said, we are in serious talks right now amongst one of our boards about security. We are making changes in how we watch who comes and goes and about the overall security of our facility.

There are also some legal ways around the prohibition to CCW in church buildings which we are exploring as well.

Whatever the outcome of those legalities, I cannot imagine trying to fire and hit a BG from the pulpit to the backdoor. I just can't fathom shooting directly over the heads of 250 people who may pop up at anytime and become unintended targets.

For whatever it is worth, I do CC at every legally available opp.

 

[Don357]

I am a church musician, Sunday school teacher, and Evangelist and I carrry as do several others in our church. Normally I carry a Kel-Tec P-11 in my front pocket, or with a K-T belt clip depending on the type of shirt or if I'm wearing a jacket. Personally I feel that, relying on my military training and the fact that I hunt with a handgun, I could make a shot half the length of our sanctuary(about 25yds) easily enough.
As for the morality of a minister carrying a weappon, without getting into a scriptual debate, Jesus even told His deciples to buy swords to defend themselves. And churches have long been seen a easy targets for criminals and I see the safety of member's lives as well as their souls part of my responsibility as a minister.

 

[Calen]

I'm also a church musician and do carry. My weapon of choice is an XD 45 and I generally carry two extra mags. I've never had a problem with concealment, but I wear a sports jacket anytime I'm carrying. My main concern with choosing a carry weapon was which one I felt most comfortable with and could be most accurate with. I figured once I had the weapon chosen I could change my style for concealment.I know that not everyone has that option.

As a side note, we also have several LE (including instructor at POST) and a few others that are part of the official security team and are usually stationed around the entrance. I'm mainly a backup while playing, but anytime I'm not onstage I switch to security mode. I am really glad to see so many ministers/church-goers discussing this issue. As was said before, the world is changing and we have to change with it. When I was growing up even the worst BGs left churches alone. Now it's fairly common to see them burglarized or worse.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

JR1,
A law prohibiting church members from protecting themselves is a terribly dangerous law. Every nut in the State knows they can shoot up a church without resistance just as they do in schools because they know there will be no one with a gun to stop them. Forcing worshipers to become lambs for the saluter is just wrong. I would hope that law would be changed and changed soon.

That's just plain dangerous...

 

[JR1]

Archangel--It has been that way here for a long, long time. During that time there have been instances of churches shootings in the state and still nothing has changed.

As pastor I operate on a don't ask, don't tell policy when it comes to carrying. There are a number of people in the congregation who are CCW and there are many I shoot with including two former policemen. What they all choose to do regarding the law is up to them. I won't advocate breaking the law, but I may choose to just not know in a case like this.

 

[seeker_two]

You may want to consider keeping the pocket gun on your person and carrying a full-sized pistol off-body. There are datebook-type holsters that could also double as a Bible cover and some Bible covers at the Christian bookstores that could carry a Bible and a decent-sized handgun.

Just a thought, Padre....

 

[Quoheleth]

You may want to consider keeping the pocket gun on your person and carrying a full-sized pistol off-body. There are datebook-type holsters that could also double as a Bible cover and some Bible covers at the Christian bookstores that could carry a Bible and a decent-sized handgun.

Just a thought, Padre....

Appreciate the idea, and honestly I did think about that (a la Pale Rider) ...also have had a thought of keeping a beater pistol in a carved-out book on a bookshelf behind my desk for during-the-week.

But it keeps coming around to one thing: all it takes is a single moment (heartbeats, really) when that book/Bible is set down and some kid or nosey adult comes by (Oh, here's pastor's other Bible...let me see if I can find that verse he was talking about) and At best, my "concealed" is unconcealed; at worst...I do not even want to write the word. Let's just say "prison ministry" becomes very personal. Carry off-person, knowing I would be in a crowd, just seems to have bad, bad potential.

And, someone suggested stashing on in the pulpit. We only have a single pulpit - not a separate pulpit and lectern - and we use lay-readers during the service. I wouldn't want to leave a loaded weapon inside the pulpit for that very reason.

Might still do the cut-out book behind my desk - something innocuous that NO ONE will grab (a dictionary, hymnal, etc., someone might grab as a quick reference; this will have to be something like "The History of the Norman Conquest in Northern Britain: 1066" or Nanci Polosi's new book - you know, something that only the author's mother has purchased) and keep it on my desk for during the week. But, sure as shooting (so to speak), the one time I do that will be the time I go answer the door (I'm the only one at church most days of the week) without The Book will be a very bad day...

No, if I'm going to do this on SUndays, I think the best bet will be carry on-person, even if I give up speed for concealment (i.e. tuckable IWB or ankle vs. pocket carry).

Q

 

[seeker_two]

Good concerns.....you can get one that locks, too...

 

[Stevie-Ray]

As I said before, Pastor, I applaud your choice to CC. If you have church officers, I would first approach the board of trustees. Find out if any among them are concealed carriers. If they are not, they might know somebody in the congregation who is. At any rate see if you can convince them to position themselves during services to be of help if the unthinkable happens. After all, what happens will no doubt happen in the nave where they are seated. Best of all would be several carriers spread out around the nave, because they know each other and want to give the congregation as much security as possible. I know, that if my Pastor approached me about a similar question, I would be happy to oblige. This idea might sound extreme, but as I said before, most Pastors I know take an entirely different view on guns; it's a pleasure to hear from one that takes security seriously.

 

[armedandsafe]

You sound like a sheepdog, pastor.

Why do you think the congregation is called "the flock?"

I seem to gather ministers to me. I remember having Reverand T. borrow my toy pirate's sword from me to wear as a prop one time. His sermon was from Luke, of course.

We used to tease the local priest about his "Marilyn Monroe" attire when he would shoot with us (split up the side of the "skirt.")

I hosted the batchelor's party for one of our local Reverand's future son-in-law. The range pictures were posted on the parish bulletin board.

I helped a parish priest mount an M1 Carbine under the pulpit with break-away clips.

I advised and trained a Jesuit Priest when he graduated from a 30-30 lever gun to a bolt 300 Weatherby to carry in his bush plane.

Keep up the training and thinking, sir. you are on the right track, in my opinion.

Pops

 

[longtooth]

35ys pastoring a Baptist Church. I am in Diboll about 125 miles North of you on 59.
I know I am in a verry gun friendly area. Also Range Safety Officer at local range. I have trained SEVERAL in our church w/ handguns. 60 average on Sunday Morning & 50 Sunday night. We will have 6-8 CHLs at any service.
I carry a Ruger SP101 OWB on Sunday. Top Pic.
Wear a vest all the time. Virtually all of our little chruch knows the preacher is armed & that there are several more that choose where they sit so all doors are covered. No security guards at our church.
Week days I carry a Kimber Pro CDP under a vest. I hate coats.

Sunday Carry on top. SP101 in a BoomStick holster. Sunday is a different belt.


Sometimes shoulder carry. Anytime in a bumpy possibility place. Alessi Body Guard & the Kimber.


One of my vests & a Sunday shirt. Add a tie & slacks & this my Sunday dress.



Week day carry in a Tucker HF1.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

longtooth,
Way to go!!

I find nothing wrong with you protecting yourself and congregation from those who would do evil. BTW, you have some very nice handguns and holsters there.

 

[TonyB]

longtooth:I bet your people don't have a problem tithing

 

[BigRugerLover]

I'm a pastor too

I'm really glad to see this post and will be rethinking a few things--THANKS.

To try to answer your question, the Ruger LCP in a pocket holster is the most concealable thing that I have found that I can also get to quickly.

Here's where I'm at right now with my CCW and ordination vows. Theologically, it is entirely impossible for me to shoot someone at church in front of my flock. I would rather take a bullet and am ready to pull up my alb and charge the shooter. We have two ushers at the main entrance behind everyone and one of them is always a big buy. I know that one of the members carries and she is at the best-attended service. Also, I don't carry when wearing clericals. So, on Sunday mornings and when I'm in uniform, the G19 with 22 rounds (12 & 10) is in the glove compartment. Also, everybody has cell phones, the service is monitored in the baby room, a police substation is two blocks away, and the main police station is a quarter mile.

When responding to security alarms at night, I will carry in the church. And the rectory, well, it could also be called "arsenal."

This comes after considering that one of the recent church shootings was nearby in SW Missouri.

That said, I carry the the G19 IWB and use the ruger LCP for backup or summer wear.

BRL

 

[OldCowHand]

Theologically, it is entirely impossible for me to shoot someone at church in front of my flock.

Could you expand on that a bit? During his stint as a shepherd, David tangled with the occasional lion and bear, emerged victorious, and thereby protected his flock. I'm trying to imagine how those principles wouldn't carry across to the protection of the congregation under a pastor's care (by the way, the English word "pastor" derives from the old French for "shepherd").

I would rather take a bullet and am ready to pull up my alb and charge the shooter.

Committing suicide by flinging yourself at the shooter won't do much to protect the flock, methinks. It'll get you killed, but the shooter is still free to shoot others under that scenario. The point of the exercise, with apologies to General Patton, isn't to die for your flock so much as to keep the shooter from killing them. You have two options: (1) pray and (2) shoot faster and straighter than the BG. I'm going to assume that (1) is part of the plan, regardless, but (2) may be one of those situations where Psalm 144:1 applies: "Praise be to the LORD my Rock, who trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle." David, the author of that psalm, was aware of many situations in which God handled the battle all by Himself, but knew that sometimes He chose to use people to carry out His plan. So David trusts in God, but recognizes that, in any given situation, he may have to play a role. God will still supervene, but David may be involved. God will equip David, and David will be ready to take whatever part is assigned to him.

 

[SWDoc]

Great rabbit trail, and I am interested. But maybe this topic (scriptural basis for lethal force in self defense) deserves its own thread?

Steve

 

[Mr. D]

How is killing someone in church, and thereby protecting the congregation, any different than killing someone in self defense or defense of family at any other time or place? Now, if you had an issue with the use of deadly force as defense, that would be a different issue all together. However, if you believe in using deadly force to defend one's life/family/other innocents, how does the fact that it may happen in a church make things different?

~Dale

 

[Ala Dan]

Many thanks too all our fine Clergy men and women, currently doing the
work of our Heavenly Father. I know this is a difficult task at times, being
awakened at 0 dark thirty to sit with a family whose loved one has just
passed; or provide counsel for a unruly marriage that has quickly gone to
the dogs. But, I think you people are most deserving (it being GOD's will)
to protect yourself while performing his duties here on earth. You clery
men and women face the same dangers that oridanary citizens do; but
much more on a countless basis, due to the nature of your work. I think
GOD, or his son JESUS CHRIST would have no objection to you folk's (who
are on call 24/7) going armed too protect yourselves. I certainly have NO
objection, and would feel real guilty if someone harmed a hair on your head~!

 

[Technosavant]

But, I think you people are most deserving (it being GOD's will) to protect yourself while performing his duties here on earth.

Thanks Dan.

I still believe that of all the professions out there, the two that have the least excuse to think that self defense isn't necessary are the police and the clergy. The police because they deal with evil in actual practice every day, the clergy because we deal with evil in theory; neither should be surprised at all at the bad stuff that can happen.

I know around here there was an incident of a preacher in a rural church getting robbed at gunpoint in his office. It isn't just security on Sunday mornings that concerns me- too many folks see churches as having plenty of cash on hand (usually not the case) and being quite soft targets. I know it annoys a couple of my members, but there's a reason I leave the church doors locked during the week (folks stopping by to seek salvation are are more rare than they might think and they usually reek of alcohol when you do see them).

 

[Quoheleth]

Dan-

I certainly have NO
objection, and would feel real guilty if someone harmed a hair on your head~!

So, to prevent that sense of guilt, you're going to hook me up with a really smokin' deal on a Bersa concealed carry .380 ? (Just kidding...really!)

Seriously, I again thank all who've posted here with thoughts & opinions. The funny thing is that it started with a question of clergymen of what to carry and how to carry it. For those who answered those questions, specifically, I am especially grateful.

The conversation has gone far & wide. I find it interesting that no one objects to doctors carrying to save their lives or family lives knowing that in their utilizing a weapon, they might take the life of a BG. Yet for some, idea of a pastor using a Peacemaker (or other weapon of choice) causes heartburn. I realize the doctor-pastor anology is imperfect; yet there is a point of comparison there as well.

Without becoming overly theological - I respect the rules of THR regarding theological discussion - I see myself, as a pastor, to be a shepherd. I follow the Good Shepherd in my calling to be an undershepherd - a pastor - and that means defending the flock not only from spiritual harm (a very REAL evil, I would argue Technosavant, not theoretical) but from physical harm if I can. That involves helping get contingency plans in place, get people thinking about security and reaction (to all sorts of situations), and in the case of really, really bad stuff happening, what about afterward. I pray I never have to use ANY type of weapon, be it a gun, knife, or thrown hymnal, in church or anywhere else. But if something does happen, I also pray I am able to defend those whom I love.

FWIW, I'm planning to get in on the CCW class in October. We'll see where things go from there.

For now, I will depart in peace...

Q

 

[Caddo]

Quoheleth, as you will learn in your concealed carry class, according to Texas Concealed Carry Law PC46.035 (b) A license holder commits an offense if the license holder intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly carries a handgun under the authority
of Subchapter H. Chapter 411, Government Code, regardless of
whether the handgun is concealed, on or about the license holder's
person:

(6) on the premises of a church, synagogue, or other established
place of religious worship.


LD

 

[wdlsguy]

Caddo, please see § 46.035(i) which effectively nullifies that prohibition.

 

[Technosavant]

that means defending the flock not only from spiritual harm (a very REAL evil, I would argue Technosavant, not theoretical)

We agree there.

My meaning of my statement was to point out that the clergy has no excuse to be shocked by the ferocity or inhumanity of what one person can do to another. Some think that because we talk of redemption and forgiveness that preachers are somehow hidden from the dangers and evil the world holds (I sometimes hear some people say "sorry to bring this to you, preacher...", but in fact, I know there's nothing that is beneath humans when they are given to evil). Far from it, we should expect such things to happen, since we know that evil is a very real thing.

No, spiritual dangers are not theoretical, but I wasn't referring to those. I was talking about the worst of the criminals out there and the things that they bring forth from their worst nightmares to visit upon others. Those we should expect.

 

[Caddo]

wdlsguy, Thank you, Sir. I stand corrected.

I guess if he's the Pastor, there wouldn't be a 30.06 notification.

Quoheleth - Disregard, Good luck with your decision.

LD