Clint Smith on the 4 rules

[J-Bar]

If you live with and accept the "incorrect" idea that guns are always loaded, then it will prevent a tragedy that one time when you pull the trigger on that "empty" gun and shoot something you wish you had not shot.

It explains why there is a .45 caliber hole in my workbench rather than a .45 caliber hole in something else. I pointed my "empty" gun in a relatively safe direction and pulled the trigger. Surprise! Because I followed the rules I did not put a hole in something tragic. I just put a hole in something embarassing.

Methinks some folks need to view Clint's video again.

 

[mgmorden]

If you live with and accept the "incorrect" idea that guns are always loaded, then it will prevent a tragedy that one time when you pull the trigger on that "empty" gun and shoot something you wish you had not shot.

It explains why there is a .45 caliber hole in my workbench rather than a .45 caliber hole in something else. I pointed my "empty" gun in a relatively safe direction and pulled the trigger. Surprise! Because I followed the rules I did not put a hole in something tragic. I just put a hole in something embarassing.

Methinks some folks need to view Clint's video again.

Even you didn't follow the advice though, as if you truly were treating the gun as loaded, you never would have pointed it at your work bench and pulled the trigger (unless you truly intended to shoot the bench, in which case I'll concede).

If you want to get right down to the nitty gritty of following the rules religiously you violated the first and the third rules. You only got off the hook because you didn't violate rule 2. In that you've already basically admitted that you selectively ignore them when doing certain tasks that require that you do so.

If you had actually followed the rule that I posted "Treat all firearms as unloaded until you have personally verified otherwise.", then you would have discovered the round in the chamber and not had a hole ANYWHERE.

 

[Fu-man Shoe]

Reading the comments, I just don't see the point of splitting hairs.

Always *assume* it's loaded. Don't screw around with a potentially loaded gun, playing with it, that sort of thing. You know what I mean. Even if you *know* it's empty, don't point it at your head, your wife, the dog, the tv, etc.
It's a good concept. Like the man said, it's a "lifestyle change".

Even if you're drinking a beer or two and popping a few clays with some friends on a nice saturday, don't wave guns around with your finger on the trigger, you know?

It's easy. You guys with the semantics crack me up. The four rules are not a law brief that needs to have some kind of clever refutation. It's basic safety. Learn it, live it.

 

[mgmorden]

Reading the comments, I just don't see the point of splitting hairs.

Always *assume* it's loaded. Don't screw around with a potentially loaded gun, playing with it, that sort of thing. You know what I mean. Even if you *know* it's empty, don't point it at your head, your wife, the dog, the tv, etc.
It's a good concept. Like the man said, it's a "lifestyle change".

Even if you're drinking a beer or two and popping a few clays with some friends on a nice saturday, don't wave guns around with your finger on the trigger, you know?

It's easy. You guys with the semantics crack me up. The four rules are not a law brief that needs to have some kind of clever refutation. It's basic safety. Learn it, live it.

Trust me, we're on the same page. Like I said, its all about common sense. In over 20 years of firearms usage I've never had a ND. I just use common sense like you're saying. Treat the gun as if loaded until you verify otherwise. Even if you've verified - don't be stupid and just point it at things or people goofing off. Keep your finger off the trigger unless you have a valid reason for putting it there (firing the gun, disassembly, etc). At the same time, if I need to inspect the bore then I have no issues doing so with an open bolt/slide that I've thoroughly checked to be empty.

What you'll find though is that if you even HINT at not following the 4 rules religiously to the letter with no exceptions, some people will accuse you of being unsafe - to the point that if you say to "treat all guns as if they're loaded" often times you'll be corrected by someone stating that "all guns ARE ALWAYS loaded".

 

[Nushif]

"All guns are always loaded" is not only patently false, it also goes down a line of thinking that I find absolutely unacceptable: that it is ok to lie to people (or yourself) as long as the lie generates an outcome you want.

This!

A while ago when we were talking about this someone who claimed to be an instructor was telling us how he would clear a gun during a class, fastfinger a blank into it and then "eject" it again to show that all guns are always loaded.
To me all that does is make students afraid of their own inability to ever clear a gun and makes them scared of the things. Some guns really do load themselves, as this guy just patently proved.

If I pick up a gun ... clear it and it doesn't leave my hand the gun is clear.
When I pick it up again I will check it again, or when I am idle while holding it, but there is such a thing as slavish obedience to a rule.

 

[The Lone Haranguer]

Deleted, please disregard.

 

[wrc]

Col. Cooper wrote these years ago before the International Association of Pedantry had such a broad membership.

There was a lot more expected of the reader back then.

It's easy. You guys with the semantics crack me up. The four rules are not a law brief that needs to have some kind of clever refutation. It's basic safety. Learn it, live it.

 

[thefamcnaj]

I love that video. Straight foward and to the point. I found as a favorite on hickok45's page on YouTube.
So many unfortunate mishaps could be avoided, if these 4 simple rules will be followed.

 

[J-Bar]

Even you didn't follow the advice though, as if you truly were treating the gun as loaded, you never would have pointed it at your work bench and pulled the trigger (unless you truly intended to shoot the bench, in which case I'll concede).

If you want to get right down to the nitty gritty of following the rules religiously you violated the first and the third rules. You only got off the hook because you didn't violate rule 2. In that you've already basically admitted that you selectively ignore them when doing certain tasks that require that you do so.

If you had actually followed the rule that I posted "Treat all firearms as unloaded until you have personally verified otherwise.", then you would have discovered the round in the chamber and not had a hole ANYWHERE.

Actually, there was not a "round" in the chamber. Since so many on this thread are sensitive to semantics, it must be important to be 100% precise.

It was a cap and ball revolver that I was clearing the nipples on in preparation for loading for a match the next day. The charged chamber was a result of a mechanical problem at the last shoot. I was not able to clear the gun at the range and returned home with one chamber loaded. Which I never do of course. Except this one time when there was a mechanical problem.

This is not an excuse. It's not really much of an explanation. It just shows that stuff happens and that 4 rules provide redundant layers of security.

I honored the 4 rules. There is no rule that says check the chamber. I considered the gun loaded, so I pointed it away from me before pulling the trigger. I did not mean to "destroy" my workbench, true, but the hole was no consequence other than surprise and embarassment.

Yes, I made a mistake. Following the muzzle direction rule minimized the consequences of the mistake. That is precisely the point of the 4 rules. If you honor them it will minimize the effects of a mistake. If you never make a mistake the rules are unnecessary.

Did you ever make a mistake?

 

[mljdeckard]

I prefer the "All guns are always loaded" terminology. It's just more simple for more people.

 

[mgmorden]

Yes, I made a mistake. Following the muzzle direction rule minimized the consequences of the mistake. Did you ever make a mistake?

I wasn't BLAMING you for the mistake. Heck in your example its a clear cut situation in which rule #3 HAS to be broken to get the chore of clearing the nipples done (I've got a cap n' ball gun too - lots of fun but I wonder how they fired those things without shooting glasses way back when - spits stuff everywhere). Some thought has to be applied rather than a rigid robotic following of a dogma.

I was merely pointing out that you didn't follow rule 1 - in either the form you argued for or the form I stated. If you followed neither form of the rule, how does your example prove that either variation is superior over the other?

 

[J-Bar]

I was editing while you were responding.

Guess I am a slow thinker among my other faults.

 

[beatledog7]

I live by the four rules, so please don't flame me for what follows.

Good safety habits matter, but there are times when we simply cannot avoid bringing people into line with the muzzle. That's actually ok.

Muzzle control always matters while a gun is (1) mechanically capable of firing and is (2) being handled, but once you remove either of those things the muzzle can be anywhere without danger because the gun cannot fire.

(1) Open the action of a gun, it cannot fire. Remove the bolt, open the breech, lock back the slide, swing open the cylinder, lower the hammer...whatever renders it incapable of firing even if the trigger is pulled (or a pull is attempted). Putting it in "safe" doesn't count.

(2) Put a gun down and move hands away, it cannot fire. I make it a point to never set down a gun that's loaded unless it's intentionally left loaded for SD/HD use, but even if I did I know that a gun that's not being touched cannot fire. I also never put a loaded gun into a case, range bag, or safe, even though guns in those places cannot fire. (If you have a trick case with a trigger hole, please burn it.)

As long as either 1 or 2 is true, even a loaded gun cannot fire.

 

[rodregier]

Just a technical (as opposed to a linguistic point) on the theme.

Kevlar "pads" are sold commercially, which are a wonderful adjunct "safe direction" to the unloading/dry fire process that is necessary to clear certain autopistols.

Especially recommended when overnighting outside your own residence and attending training which will mandate firearm cleaning in the evening...

 

[GCMkc]

"If you're scared of the dark, turn on the lights". I thought that was hilarious.

 

[SaxonPig]

After reading comments made by Mr. Smith a couple years ago where he basically said everyone in the world except for him was a dumb-ass I have zero respect for him. Not really interested in what he has to say.

 

[dmazur]

(1) Open the action of a gun, it cannot fire...(2) Put a gun down and move hands away, it cannot fire.

Our range doesn't require empty chamber flags, but we do have a couple of rules that are similar to the above:

When the range is cold, all rifles have to have their actions open. This may vary according to action type, but the idea is levers down, bolts open, falling-blocks open, etc.

When the range is cold, rifles may be left in the rests, but noone is allowed to touch them. No adjusting scopes, no cleaning, no nothing. You can mess around with your range bag, but touching the rifle is prohibited.

Of course, while you are servicing targets, there are 12 high-power rifles aimed at your back. Except they are harmless.

While the Four Rules are part of the mandatory training required for membership, nobody has argued that the range procedures are a violation.

 

[JohnBT]

"Of course, while you are servicing targets, there are 12 high-power rifles aimed at your back."

Aren't all ranges run this way? All the ones I've ever visited were and there would be a couple dozen unloaded handguns with open actions on the benches pointed at my butt too while I was hanging targets.

OMG, THEY WERE ALL LOADED. I COULD HAVE DIED.



What was that word, pedantry? In other news, claiming the reader is capable of understanding what a phrase really means is no excuse for sloppy, inexact writing.

 

[gym]

Glock unloading, without worrying about a discharge. Drop mag, pull slide back, round falls out, recheck 3 times, make sure you have the ejected round. Gun is empty, pulling the trigger is now harmless, I point at the carpeted floor. Unless there is a ghost in the house you have cleared the gun and rechecked it 3 times. There has to be point that you trust that the gun is empty.My guns are all loaded, if out of the safe, and two in the safe. I don't ever want to have to run in and barricade the door, then deal with an unloaded gun, which could happen with a home invasion.In such a case you may have screwed up and somehow "they" are in the house. There is always a chance while you are still breathing, that you could get to the other room, where another gun is waiting.The last thing you want to be doing is looking for a mag or rounds. It also depends on your living conditions, single, married, kids, grandkids, Dog? It's easy to set up secure systems in a bachlor pad, since you are living alone. But with wife or kids running in and out and kids friends, you can't leave your tactical shotgun in the closet, Or your 45 in the freezer, or any of that kind of stuff. They have to be secured thus making it difficult to prepare for situations. Night time you should have a routine. Flashlights and guns in the proper places in the bedroom. Lock the door to your room if you have kids. I would rather be woken up by a screaming kid, than a group of gangbangers.

 

[JVaughn]

I thought it was a well delivered and sensible discussion about the "way of life" philosophy of the 4 rules.
+1

 

[Walkalong]

Of course, while you are servicing targets, there are 12 high-power rifles aimed at your back.

In Benchrest, all bolts are removed when time is called. No gun ever has a bolt in it except from "Commence firing" to "Cease firing". Period! No target crew is ever down range with a gun capable of firing pointed at them. Never.

At the local range, it is up to the individuals. Gotta be on your toes. One idiot started firing when I was still downrange once. He got a serious ear full, and left shortly afterwards. I reckin he thought it was OK because he was on the other end of the range. Dumb***

 

[rskent]

Clint Smith is fantastic. I love the way he explains things.
Steve

 

[JohnBT]

"In Benchrest, all bolts are removed when time is called."

That doesn't matter where The Rule is concerned - All Guns Are Loaded. Even the unloaded, empty, boltless ones.

 

[Apuuli]

I honored the 4 rules. There is no rule that says check the chamber.

Clearly there should be...

I kind of consider checking the chamber as a corollary to "A gun is always loaded unless otherwise verified."

But I guess if a gun is ALWAYS loaded, there's just no point in checking the chamber. It's just that kind of strict adherence to the rules that gave us the never empty Western movie gun.

 

[Elkins45]

Sometimes pedantry matters, sometimes it doesn't. I prefer the simpler "all guns are always loaded" terminology because it's just easy to remember...but being pedantic about the wording of the rules assumes the strict wording of the rules is all the shooter knows, and I can't imagine that's ever the case. When teaching that rule to someone who doesn't use a few (or even a lot) of extra sentences to explain the INTENT of this rule?

Yes, this rule (when interpreted strictly as written) has to be willfully violated to clean or disassemble guns, but so what? There are 'laws' against driving through an intersection on red, but fire, police and EMS routinely disregard that 'law' in relative safety to accomplish a necessary outcome. Heck, there are laws against shooting people but there are times when those laws are deemed not to apply for the greater goal of personal safety.

I do think someone in a previous post made a good point in that usually people die only when at least two of the rules are broken.