Close call,old powder

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Joatmon

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I was going through a metal filing cabinet that I store a lot of powder in, looking for some gadget stored in there. I happened to notice what looked like rust on the drawer around the bottom of a powder can. Picking up the can (very old Hodgden container of 4831) I could tell the rust was really bad and it was also starting on an old can of Dupont 4831. In fact, rust was eating into the side of the can. Carefully removing both cans outside the house I did the old smell test and poured out some of the powder. No solvent smell at all, and a couple of flecks of orange in the powder.

Dumped both cans into the woods to fertilize the trees and breathed a big sigh of relief. This made me want to check around all the other powders I have stored in the basement for signs of problems. Makes me want to consider storing this stuff out in a building away from the house, but then the changes in temp would probably not help shelf life. I guess my takeaway is don’t hang on to old stuff too long! Glad all I got out of this was a scare.
 
Photos of bad powder link

Metal cans would seem to be the problem. Transfer to HDPE plastic. http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?162108-Bad-Powder-pictures
th_IMR4895_20090928_1.jpg
[/URL][/IMG]
 
All my powder is stored in plastic jugs. The jugs don't last very long anyway the way I load and shoot.
 
I'm not trying to be a smart #$$, so don't take this wrong. What was the "scare" and what was the "close call"?
 
Yep, The scare was the spontaneous combustion part. A couple of pounds igniting in the house would be a disaster. I catalog this as a close call. I know that the rusting and deterioration happened within the last 12 months or so. Could have had a bad ending. The can I had did not look quite as bad as the photo above, but it was starting to go. The Hodgdon can was one of those old square cardboard ones. My powder is always stored in a cool basement, unfortunately this was some that came with a bulk of reloading supplies that I bought a while back without knowing how old it was or how it had been stored. Good lesson there, don't take any chances.
 
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Well that's why I asked. Did not know that spontaneous combustion was a possibility. Good to know. Couple of follow-ups. Has anyone ever had it happen or know of a verified case. Not in any way denying it as I am sure Alliant would not list it as a concern otherwise. Just wondering if it is an extremely rare situation that could only occur under the most extreme conditions.

Joatmon - Is the assumption that the powder was exposed to prolonged extreme heat at some point before you acquired it and that's what caused it to turn? Did the cans rust from the inside out due to the powder turning?

Learning something new today. Thanks.
 
Metal cans would seem to be the problem. Transfer to HDPE plastic.
Click to expand...
Metal cans are not the problem.
Metal cans are perfectly fine for years & years, as long as the powder is good.

Then the powder starts breaking down and giving off nitric acid fumes which rusts out the cans.

Stored in , or transferred into modern plastic bottles, you would never have a clue anything was wrong until it was really wrong!

I'm all for the return of metal cans, because they are a fail-safe warning the powder is going bad when they start rusting out from the acid fumes.

But a return to metal cans?
That isn't going to happen!!!!!

rc
 
When powder goes bad it stinks and has a red dust mixed in with it. I've seen it a couple of times, but powder stored properly will last for many, many years.

I kind of miss the old cardboard drums myself. I still have a few, but the powder has long ago been used up....... I still do have a 12 pound steel keg of SR 4756 that I've been working on for over 20 years, and the powder is still as good as the day it was purchased.

Hope this helps.

Fred
 
In the mid seventies I bought some reloading stuff. there were several cans of powder. I don't know how old these cans were at that time. I still have not opened them. They look fine. I give them a once over every month because I reach over to other powders. The old cans are in front so I have to see them every time I'm in the area for other powders.

I did get rid of a can from my cousin several years ago. Almost as bad as that can of 4895 in the picture. i hated to lose that can.

I guess that means we need to load more and shoot more! Can't afford to be throwing away powder! :D

Mark
 
calcium carbonate

There are additives added to some powders that help keep the powder from attacking cartridge brass & bullet alloys. Check the MSDS supplied by Hodgdon & Alliant.
 
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Am I correct that the smallest size containers of powder that you can buy, are one pound?

If you buy one, and use it up over a year or so, what, if anything, do you need to do on a periodic basis to be sure nothing is going wrong? If you buy a popular brand, say, Bullseye, is this still a concern?
 
Spontaneous combustion? There is no chance such a small container of bad powder could generate enough heat to ignite.
 
Gorsh, Mickey, one more thing to worry about!

And you STILL haven't told me whether to buy NuFinish or Lemishine for our tumbler. I'm down to my last raw nerve!
 
moxie said:
Gorsh, Mickey, one more thing to worry about!

And you STILL haven't told me whether to buy NuFinish or Lemishine for our tumbler. I'm down to my last raw nerve!
Click to expand...

Not meaning to step in "out of place" but I use the lemishine (citric acid) as a soak prior to tumbling. Then a rinse, and the soak only if needed on badly tarnished range brass. Other than that, a capful or two in you tumbling media should be fine. I don't recommend tumbling in citric based products unless you are going to wash it afterwords.
 
IMtheNRA; perhaps you should read the Alliant information on the link posted by 243win in post #6. It specifically states that spontaneous combustion may occur in deteroriating powder and it doesn't specify a minimum size.
 
Gorsh, Mickey, now I don't even know when to add the Nufinish, or the Lemishine, whenever you make up your mind which one. PAST my last raw nerve now. (And is one capful or two better, and do I rinse or not, and ...)
 
As stated above, all powder will break down over time. If stored properly it can last for decades without any changes. Storage conditions can accelerate the breakdown, big temperature changes, high heat. Storing in plastic as RC said has nothing to do with preserving it. With metal you have a warning since the cans will start to rust rapidly. Residual acid from the nitration process (if not completely neutralized) begins the process. Nitric acid is used for nitration of the cellulose (or glycerin) and sulfuric acid is used to absorb the excess water from the reaction (as I recall from my undergrad chemistry days). Even a small amount of stored powder can be a problem (much less than one pound). Those cans I dumped were at least 30-40 years old. I plan on culling old cans of powder that I don't use much of anymore.
 
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mikemyers said:
Am I correct that the smallest size containers of powder that you can buy, are one pound?

If you buy one, and use it up over a year or so, what, if anything, do you need to do on a periodic basis to be sure nothing is going wrong? If you buy a popular brand, say, Bullseye, is this still a concern?
Click to expand...
A year, REALLY!!! If you store your powders in a dry area I wouldn't worry about powders for Decades. In "powder time" a years is only a moment in time...

You are worrying about way too much for no good reason. :)
 
Check to make certain that powder is not exposed to extreme heat as this may cause deterioration . Such exposure produces an acidity which accelerates further reaction and has been known, because of the heat generated by the reaction, to cause spontaneous combustion. http://www.alliantpowder.com/getting..._handling.aspx
Click to expand...

I hate vague warnings that use words like "prolonged" or "extreme" without defining them. If you live in Pheonix, your idea of "extreme heat' might be a lot different than somebody who lives in North Dakota. Not in this quote, but i'm also hearing "prolonged" exposure to _____ . What is "prolonged"? A week, a month, a year? Somebody once asked about using magnum primers and what powders had changes in "cold weather hunting". He lived in Arkansas. Nobody asked him his definition of "cold weather hunting".
 
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