CNN sees increase in African American gun ownership

[Jim K]

There are some negatives, but this forces the left wing to think about their own racist claims that only evil whites own guns and that guns must be banned because the "government will protect us." I don't believe Trump is a racist or a neo-Nazi, but we all need to consider that the Second Amendment is not about duck hunting or skeet shooting. We need to consider that the founders of the nation were not a bunch of old stuffed shirts in funny wigs, but were exactly what we today would call a gang of armed revolutionaries. Of course no one would want a revolution (we've been there, done that, twice), but those guys whose pictures are on our money were really revolting in the precise meaning of that word.

One point about owning a gun is that it actually reduces the chance that the owner will use it. The gun owner knows that he has the means of resistance, but he also realizes that using it is an irrevocable step, and one not likely to be taken without extreme provocation.

If blacks or others have guns, so what? If they feel that they must arm themselves as protection against the government, I hope they will never have to use their arms. But the fact that they have them doesn't bother me. They have the same rights as I do, and to confiscate guns owned by blacks or other law-abiding members of minorities would not only be wrong - it would be downright un-American.

Jim

 

[bearcreek]

But you are not correct that other countries do not have terms for folks of sub-saharan ancestry. In Spain (with which I am reasonably familiar) they are called, and call themselves 'subsaharianos'. In France they are called 'noir'

That's not what I said. I said that they don't refer to themselves as "African+whatever country they're actually from". You just gave two good examples of people with some Sub-Saharan African ancestry doing exactly what I was talking about.

(and is using skin color somehow better?).

Yes, it is better. It moves the terms to a simple description of a persons appearance, like "redhead" or "tall" rather than something that encourages a "us" and "them" way of thinking.

 

[Sam1911]

Yes, it is better. It moves the terms to a simple description of a persons appearance, like "redhead" or "tall" rather than something that encourages a "us" and "them" way of thinking.

Somehow, I find the idea that calling someone a black man is noticeably more inclusive (or any more exclusive) than calling him an African-American man is patently silly. Would that be because skin color ("race" if you will) is one of those things that has historically been largely neutral in our social context, whereas names that mention continents and land masses engender widespread feelings of superiority and domination? I'd like to think that by 2017 we've set a vast degree of true prejudice and elitism behind us, but if that's so, at all, I can't see how African American is any more of a divisive term than black.

This seems like the sort of line of argument right-wing radio hosts used to howl about back in the 1980s. I'm surprised it gets any play today.

 

[MachIVshooter]

Just on the linguistic issue instead of the political stuff directly, there's a difference between "American nationalist" and either "white nationalist" or "black nationalist." The former is about national identity based on citizenship, national culture and identity, etc. The latter two are about conflating race with national identity, and are thus a very bad thing and very different than just being patriotic.

The National Review has written a number of negative pieces about "white nationalism"--it's not just liberals who equate that specific term with racial supremacy. Again, the term "white nationalism" or "black nationalism" is entirely different than "nationalism" or "American nationalism."

You miss my point. The people who are trying to tell you what to think are the ones responsible for the negative connotation, the conflating of nationalist and (racial) supremacist. Nationalism is not a loyalty to anything but your nation. It's synonymous with patriotism in most capacities.

There is really no such thing as a "white nationalist" or "black nationalist", only a nationalist who happens to be white or black (or whatever other descriptor you can attach to an individual who happens to be a nationalist)

na·tion·al·ism
ˈnaSH(ə)nəˌlizəm/
noun
noun: nationalism

1. patriotic feeling, principles, or efforts.
   synonyms: patriotism, patriotic sentiment, flag-waving, xenophobia, chauvinism, jingoism
   "their extreme nationalism was frightening"
   • an extreme form of this, especially marked by a feeling of superiority over other countries.
     plural noun: nationalisms
   • advocacy of political independence for a particular country.

No legitimate definition of nationalism will include anything about race or ethnicity, and any source providing a "definition" which does is intentionally deceitful, intellectually dishonest and agenda-driven.

 

[old lady new shooter]

There are some negatives, but this forces the left wing to think about their own racist claims that only evil whites own guns and that guns must be banned because the "government will protect us." I don't believe Trump is a racist or a neo-Nazi, but we all need to consider that the Second Amendment is not about duck hunting or skeet shooting. We need to consider that the founders of the nation were not a bunch of old stuffed shirts in funny wigs, but were exactly what we today would call a gang of armed revolutionaries. Of course no one would want a revolution (we've been there, done that, twice), but those guys whose pictures are on our money were really revolting in the precise meaning of that word.

One point about owning a gun is that it actually reduces the chance that the owner will use it. The gun owner knows that he has the means of resistance, but he also realizes that using it is an irrevocable step, and one not likely to be taken without extreme provocation.

If blacks or others have guns, so what? If they feel that they must arm themselves as protection against the government, I hope they will never have to use their arms. But the fact that they have them doesn't bother me. They have the same rights as I do, and to confiscate guns owned by blacks or other law-abiding members of minorities would not only be wrong - it would be downright un-American.

Jim

Most people posting here seem to be of the opinion that the reason more black people are becoming gun owners is fear of Trump and/or "white nationalism". I think an at least equally good case can be made that they want to defend themselves from the criminal element terrorizing their neighborhoods. There were a couple of well-publicized cases maybe 2 years ago in Detroit of black women who successfully used firearms to defend themselves from criminal attacks. In one of them the woman seems to have more or less fired blindly but she succeeded in scaring off the five thugs who climbed in her bedroom window at night. The other case, a 55-year-old grandmother, succeeded in shooting two thugs who accosted her in her driveway despite being hit 4 times herself. She then even had the presence of mind to apply pressure to her worst wound while awaiting paramedics.

 

[roscoe]

Since there has steady decrease in the murder rate in the US since the 1980s, we are looking to explain a very recent increase (if such an increase actually exists).

There is a long tradition of gun ownership in the black community to prevent racist attacks. In the late 20th century alone two examples come to mind: the Deacons of Defense escorting civil rights workers through the South, and Condoleeza Rice's father (along with his neighbors) using rifles and shotguns to keep the KKK from their Birmingham neighborhood.

My read is that black communities fear that there will be a revival of such attacks and that, while the police will surely not be as they were in the days of Bull Connor in letting the white supremacists have their way unmolested, police can not be everywhere. Fear is a strong motivator (whether or not that fear is justified).

 

[roscoe]

You miss my point. The people who are trying to tell you what to think are the ones responsible for the negative connotation, the conflating of nationalist and (racial) supremacist. Nationalism is not a loyalty to anything but your nation. It's synonymous with patriotism in most capacities.

There is really no such thing as a "white nationalist" or "black nationalist", only a nationalist who happens to be white or black (or whatever other descriptor you can attach to an individual who happens to be a nationalist)

na·tion·al·ism
ˈnaSH(ə)nəˌlizəm/
noun
noun: nationalism

1. patriotic feeling, principles, or efforts.
   synonyms: patriotism, patriotic sentiment, flag-waving, xenophobia, chauvinism, jingoism
   "their extreme nationalism was frightening"
   • an extreme form of this, especially marked by a feeling of superiority over other countries.
     plural noun: nationalisms
   • advocacy of political independence for a particular country.

No legitimate definition of nationalism will include anything about race or ethnicity, and any source providing a "definition" which does is intentionally deceitful, intellectually dishonest and agenda-driven.

It is all well and fine to quote Webster, but the fact is, many of these groups self-identify as 'White nationalists', so while they may not (possibly) meet some dictionary definition (entirely depending, BTW, on what you mean by 'nation', because it need not mean a 'state'), they are known as 'White nationalists', and rally under that flag. You can peruse Wikipedia for long lists of 'White nationalist' organizations because the term itself has now acquired a meaning that is now widely accepted.

 

[Browning]

Saw this video on YouTube of a black guy with an AR pistol threatening a white guy with a Trump sticker at a gas station and it made me think of this thread.

Is he part of the article's examples of this trend?

 

[Mitlov]

Saw this video on YouTube of a black guy with an AR pistol threatening a white guy with a Trump sticker and it made me think of this thread.

Don't know anything about that incident, but on the other hand, I think plenty of law-abiding folk who happen to be minorities are legitimately concerned about self-defense against violent white supremacists. Especially given the Charleston shooting shooting, the Quebec mosque shooting, the shooting of three people in Kansas (two ethnically South Asian, one white) by a guy shouting "get out of my country," and the shooting of a Sikh in Seattle by a guy shouting "go back to your own country." And some may be concerned about (1) whether law enforcement can respond in time to these incidents (we all know they can't, simply due to police response times and how quickly these events unfold), and (2) whether law enforcement can be counted on to respond to these incidents given the federal government removing the battle against white supremacist extremists from being part of the feds' "Countering Violent Extremism" program.

As Ida B. Wells wrote in 1892: "The lesson this teaches and which every Afro-American should ponder well, is that a Winchester rifle should have a place of honour in every black home, and it should be used for that protection which the law refuses to give."

 

[Browning]

Don't know anything about that incident, but on the other hand, I think plenty of law-abiding folk who happen to be minorities are legitimately concerned about self-defense against violent white supremacists. Especially given the Charleston shooting shooting, the Quebec mosque shooting, the shooting of three people in Kansas (two ethnically South Asian, one white) by a guy shouting "get out of my country," and the shooting of a Sikh in Seattle by a guy shouting "go back to your own country." And some may be concerned about (1) whether law enforcement can respond in time to these incidents (we all know they can't, simply due to police response times and how quickly these events unfold), and (2) whether law enforcement can be counted on to respond to these incidents given the federal government removing the battle against white supremacist extremists from being part of the feds' "Countering Violent Extremism" program.

As Ida B. Wells wrote in 1892: "The lesson this teaches and which every Afro-American should ponder well, is that a Winchester rifle should have a place of honour in every black home, and it should be used for that protection which the law refuses to give."

There's the flip side to the white supremacist attacks that you're talking about, they're committed by minorities against whites, they're more numerous and they're often swept under the carpet and are given scant attention by the media and sometimes the authorities.

Enjoy ....

By the way, Totally Not Safe For Work. Profanity and sexual suggestions every 2-3 secs




I completely realize that the vast majority of the black community in no way resembles this guy, but many act as though people like him do not exist and they'll even argue that this man is not a racist (some double-talk about power usually ensues).

 

[Mitlov]

Do you get frustrated when somebody brings up Anders Breivik or Dylann Roof every time you talk about your Second Amendment rights? Because, after all, they're not you, they have nothing to do with you, they don't reflect how you conduct yourself, and literally the only thing in common is the color of their skin?

Now place yourself in the position of some random African-American gal getting her CHL and checking out THR for the first time. Whether she's concerned about street gangs or white supremacists or rapists or all three...and seeing that one guy brought up repeatedly in this thread. Why on earth should just one specific guy who happens to be African-American and is arguably engaged in menacing (specifics depend on state law and I don't know where he is, but there's no question that's not a proper way to conduct yourself while carrying) be brought repeatedly in a thread about more African-Americans owning firearms?

If you don't want your own demographic judged as a whole by the individual actions of one person who happens to be a member of that demographic, why even post that video?

 

[Browning]

Do you get frustrated when somebody brings up Anders Breivik or Dylann Roof every time you talk about your Second Amendment rights? Because, after all, they're not you, they have nothing to do with you, they don't reflect how you conduct yourself, and literally the only thing in common is the color of their skin?

Sure I do, but it happens quite often. Right?

You're bringing it up yourself.

Now place yourself in the position of some random African-American gal getting her CHL and checking out THR for the first time. Whether she's concerned about street gangs or white supremacists or rapists or all three. Why on earth should just one specific guy who happens to be African-American and is arguably engaged in menacing (specifics depend on state law and I don't know where he is) be brought repeatedly in a thread about more African-Americans owning firearms?

I was watching a YouTube subscription that I have. This particular guy is black (his name is TJ Sotomayor if you want to check him out) and he was talking about blacks and crime. He was making the point about ordinary blacks being the victims of the criminal element even more than any other racial group is.

Criminals victimize others within their own racial group far more often then they usually victimize those of other racial groups.

But when someone of a different race points this fact out then suddenly they're a racist. I would hope that any young black woman looking for carry or gun information would also know that this is the type of guy who will victimize her and her family.

This closing ranks thing just because someone of another race mentions it is for the birds.

If you don't want your own demographic judged as a whole by the individual actions of one person who happens to be a member of that demographic, why even post that video?

Because you were talking about white supremacists and acting as if they were a major threat as if this were a program on CNN

That's the flipside. Those are the people that we have to worry about. They exist and they are far more numerous than white supremacists or anybody else who would victimize a person of color simply because they exist.

White supremacists actually pose less of a threat to the black community than the black gangsters in the black community.

 

[Mitlov]

Browning--

But using that same reasoning, if we are only allowed to worry about a particular threat if it's statistically larger than other threats, I need to point out that for all of us here, the risk of death from street crime is statistically tiny compared to death from auto accidents, alcohol over-consumption, and heart disease. So if it's not okay to worry about risk X if it's statistically less than risk Y, we should all stop posting on THR and practicing self-defense skills, and instead start focusing more drinking less, running more, and driving Volvos.

But that's not how psychology works, which is the same reason people worry more about terrorists than meth addicts, and people spend more money on guns than treadmills.

And whether white supremacists or street criminals are the impetus to law-abiding citizens exploring firearms for self-defense purposes (including law-abiding citizens who are people of color)...does it matter? Once you've got the firearms and got the training, it protects just as well against either.

 

[Browning]

Browning--

But using that same reasoning, if we are only allowed to worry about a particular threat if it's statistically larger than other threats, I need to point out that for all of us here, the risk of death from street crime is statistically tiny compared to death from auto accidents, alcohol over-consumption, and heart disease. So if it's not okay to worry about risk X if it's statistically less than risk Y, we should all stop posting on THR and practicing self-defense skills, and instead start focusing more drinking less, running more, and driving Volvos.

Yes, completely true. Statistically all those activities are more likely to kill you than violent crime.

The thing is people fear personal violence far more than they do diabetes, atherosclerosis and heart attacks.

However this is a gun forum, not an exercise, nutrition or car forum. So the focus is going to be on guns and the purposes that they can be used for ... so we get self defense, competition, hunting, plinking, long range target shooting, sporting clays and the like.

 

[roscoe]

Sure I do, but it happens quite often. Right?

You're bringing it up yourself.



I was watching a YouTube subscription that I have. This particular guy is black (his name is TJ Sotomayor if you want to check him out) and he was talking about blacks and crime. He was making the point about ordinary blacks being the victims of the criminal element even more than any other racial group is.

Criminals victimize others within their own racial group far more often then they usually victimize those of other racial groups.

But when someone of a different race points this fact out then suddenly they're a racist. I would hope that any young black woman looking for carry or gun information would also know that this is the type of guy who will victimize her and her family.

This closing ranks thing just because someone of another race mentions it is for the birds.



Because you were talking about white supremacists and acting as if they were a major threat as if this were a program on CNN

That's the flipside. Those are the people that we have to worry about. They exist and they are far more numerous than white supremacists or anybody else who would victimize a person of color simply because they exist.

White supremacists actually pose less of a threat to the black community than the black gangsters in the black community.

Yes, you have missed the entire point of this thread. If you are simply going to talk about probabilities of threats, you should have mentioned cheeseburgers, since they kill 20 times as many as die from non-suicide violence in the USA.

The point is that there is a group that now sees that firearms might be important, and we need to encourage that. And, although in many cases it is not a legitimate concern, in some cases it is, and that fear is a strong motivator.

 

[Mitlov]

Yes, completely true. Statistically all those activities are more likely to kill you than violent crime.

The thing is people fear personal violence far more than they do diabetes, atherosclerosis and heart attacks.

However this is a gun forum, not an exercise, nutrition or car forum. So the focus is going to be on guns and the purposes that they can be used for ... so we get self defense, competition, hunting, plinking, long range target shooting, sporting clays and the like.

And likewise, do you understand why for a person of color, the threat of being murdered by members of an organized hate movement who want to destroy your entire people generates more fear than the possibility of being killed by a junkie in a mugging gone sideways?

 

[Browning]

Yes, you have missed the entire point of this thread. If you are simply going to talk about probabilities of threats, you should have mentioned cheeseburgers, since they kill 20 times as many as die from non-suicide violence in the USA.

I haven't missed it.

Black folks are apparently buying more guns according to CNN.

I just disagree with your emphasis on who represents the greatest threat to gun owning Americans (black, white, Asian, Hispanic or whomever).

 

[Browning]

And likewise, do you understand why for a person of color, the threat of being murdered by members of an organized hate movement who want to destroy your entire people generates more fear than the possibility of being killed by a junkie in a mugging gone sideways?

You're just taking what I said and trying to jog with it back to the place where white supremacists are this big boogeyman.

It's nonsense. They have zero following and zero influence and are rejected completely by white Americans. The Ku Klux Klan has 5,000 members at best in a country of 325,000,000 people.

On the flip side Black Lives Matter is able to attract thousands in the street with one tweet. Twice the number of the entire KKK membership show up to a BLM march (who sometimes then riot, run amok and beat up whites and the occasional Asian).

You really might want to check the net out for how people white supremacists have murdered vs how many black criminals and gang members have murdered.

 

[old lady new shooter]

Now place yourself in the position of some random African-American gal getting her CHL and checking out THR for the first time.

A very small percentage of THR members who post actively are female. I have no idea what races they represent, nor do I personally think that's relevant. But I almost never see anything posted here that I think could even remotely be called "sexist".

 

[Mitlov]

Browning--that's an apples to oranges comparison, because you're comparing ALL criminals of a certain race to just extremists from another race.

Comparing extremists to extremists, in the past ten years, 70% of extremist attacks on US soil have been white supremacist groups. (Source: ADL). That's twice the number of attacks as Muslim extremists. Now think about how much energy the nation has spent on the issue of Muslim extremists. I'd you were part of a demographic that white supremacist extremists targeted, and you knew that they'd been twice as active on US soil in the past ten years as the Muslim extremists on the news each night, don't you think you'd pay attention to them?

Comparing BLM to the KKK is a false comparison. Compare black nationalist groups like the New Black Panther Party to the KKK...but BLM as a whole isn't comparable at all.

 

[old lady new shooter]

Browning--that's an apples to oranges comparison, because you're comparing ALL criminals of a certain race to just extremists from another race.

Comparing extremists to extremists, in the past ten years, 70% of extremist attacks on US soil have been white supremacist groups. (Source: ADL). That's twice the number of attacks as Muslim extremists. Now think about how much energy the nation has spent on the issue of Muslim extremists. I'd you were part of a demographic that white supremacist extremists targeted, and you knew that they'd been twice as active on US soil in the past ten years as the Muslim extremists on the news each night, don't you think you'd pay attention to them?

Comparing BLM to the KKK is a false comparison. Compare black nationalist groups like the New Black Panther Party to the KKK...but BLM as a whole isn't comparable at all.

How many deaths were caused by each group?

 

[Browning]

Browning--that's an apples to oranges comparison, because you're comparing ALL criminals of a certain race to just extremists from another race.

Not really. If you look at the cross-racial violent crime rates (aggravated assault, rape and murder) it mostly only goes one way. Black on white or Hispanic on white.

The few sensational white on black crimes splashed across the net are usually the result of extremists or the crazies who've latched onto their ideology.

Comparing extremists to extremists, in the past ten years, 70% of extremist attacks on US soil have been white supremacist groups. (Source: ADL). That's twice the number of attacks as Muslim extremists. Now think about how much energy the nation has spent on the issue of Muslim extremists. I'd you were part of a demographic that white supremacist extremists targeted, and you knew that they'd been twice as active on US soil in the past ten years as the Muslim extremists on the news each night, don't you think you'd pay attention to them?

And how many people were severely assaulted, raped or murdered in those attacks?

You give the percentage but not the numbers. There's a reason for that.

Comparing BLM to the KKK is a false comparison. Compare black nationalist groups like the New Black Panther Party to the KKK...but BLM as a whole isn't comparable at all.

Yes, it's comparable. It just offends your sensibilities. Get over it, it's the truth.

Black mobs attacking whites are comparable to white mobs attacking blacks 96 years ago. Black terrorists seeking to kill whites or police officers who are white is racial terrorism any way you slice it.

 

[MedWheeler]

Pilot, in post 66, you quote a post of mine, but you evidently misunderstood it. I never said both sides are "baiting a race war". I only said both sides claim one is brewing.


(my post, with your added boldface):

I agree that this is largely slanted to the left, and is a result of the continued baiting of the so-called "race war" both sides have claimed is brewing.

What is different, though, is that, when it was conservatives (read: "white guys") buying guns during left-leaning political tensions, those buyers were ridiculed, vilified, and excoriated in the media. Today, this newest group of buyers is apparently commended, not for merely exercising a right they could have been all along, but for doing it for political reasons, essentially the same ones conservatives were.

(your response):

I disagree. I don't see our side baiting a race war. The reason we bought so many guns under Obama was not raced related, but for fear of more gun restrictions, and bans like the AWB, and other more restrictive gun laws. Remember, under Obama, Pelosi, Schummer etc more first time gun owners, and women bought guns more than any time previously.

I agree about the media. Totally biased, and now just a mouthpiece for the Democrats, anti (legal) gun left.

 

[Browning]

How many deaths were caused by each group?

60 since 1995 not including the oft mentioned Dylan Roof. So 69.

http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slat...ers_killed_at_least_60_in_u_s_since_1995.html

Vs

5,048 in 2014

https://www.ojjdp.gov/ojstatbb/ezashr/asp/off_display.asp

https://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/bvvc.pdf

That doesn't include aggravated assaults or rapes of blacks on other blacks, that's just murders. Blacks are 52% of the perpetrators and 49% of the victims.

So 69 murder victims of white supremacists since 1995 vs 5,048 black on black murder victims in just 2014.

I'd say that people (both white and black) should more worry about the thug on the corner rather than some mythical kluxer in a sheet.

 

[SouthernBoy]

Um - say what? There are more than 1.5 million African Americans in Virginia alone.

And if a substantial proportion become pro-gun, those votes will count.

Wrong. I have no idea how many African Americans live in Virginia but I would send you $100 if the number exceeded 100,000.

Now if you mean black Americans, you might very well be close. But an African American is someone who immigrated for the continent of Africa and became an American citizen. The term to which you refer is a product of Jesse Jackson. It is not a factual term. However, the term is very real when applied to someone like I mentioned above, hence my claim of only knowing three African Americans in my life... and one being white.