If a person came in here legally carrying a gun and looked at you the wrong way, how would you know whether he intentionally wants to harm you or wants to rob us? I wouldn't know," said Victoria Vialpando, a clerk
Oh My! They might all be crazed killers- Oh My!
http://www.denverpost.com/Stories/0,1413,36~33~1482592,00.html
New gun laws baffle businesses
Many cite lack of guidance on how to keep them out
By Kelly Pate, Denver Post Business Writer
Downtown business owners are frustrated and confused about Colorado's new gun laws.
Nick Frangos, owner of the Congress Lounge on East Colfax Avenue, posted a ‘No Guns’ sign at the entrance to his bar. The 75-year-old Frangos is concerned about patrons carrying legal weapons in his bar.‘It’s not like we are serving milk in here,’ he says.
They don't want guns in their establishments, yet few are willing to post a sign banning them. And some bar, restaurant and shop owners are queasy about telling a customer with a gun to leave.
"If a person came in here legally carrying a gun and looked at you the wrong way, how would you know whether he intentionally wants to harm you or wants to rob us? I wouldn't know," said Victoria Vialpando, a clerk at Media Play on 16th Street Mall.
"Thinking about it scares me," she said.
The two new state gun laws took effect May 17. One makes it easier to qualify for a permit to carry a concealed handgun. Previously, Denver issued such permits, but only under special circumstances.
The other law nullified Denver's ordinances that forbid the open carrying of weapons. So, citizens can carry a gun in the open, in their hand or tucked in at the waist, for instance, except in public and private buildings where signs prohibit it.
Business owners say they know it's now easier to get a gun and take it more places, but they say the state has offered no guidance about how to keep guns off their property.
"I think the big problem with the law is that it gives no guidance to employers and businesses about how to respond to the law or how to prohibit handguns," said Chuck Weiss, an employment law attorney with Faegre & Benson LLP in Denver.
One way for businesses to respond is with a "No Guns" sign, Weiss said.
In Minnesota, where similar laws are in effect, businesses that want to prohibit guns are required to post a sign, Weiss said.
"In Minneapolis, everywhere you go, you're going to see the exact same sign, same color, same size."
Nick Frangos, owner of the Congress Lounge on Capitol Hill, put a "No Guns" sign next to the front door, but he knows that won't necessarily stop someone.
"Eight or 10 years ago, this guy came in and he was intoxicated," said Frangos, who has had the bar since 1958. "I wouldn't serve him, and he took a gun out and put it on the bar. And you know what I did? I said, 'What are ya drinkin?' "
Unlike Frangos, some business owners are hesitant to post a sign.
"It would scare people off," said Christopher McPeek, who manages the Compound bar on South Broadway. "It's almost the idea you have to pat people at the door. It sends the wrong kind of message that maybe (people) shouldn't be here at this bar."
Cherry Creek mall is making no changes for now, said marketing manager Lisa Herzlich.
"In an establishment like the mall, if you're going to put a policy in place, you have to have everything to support that policy - searches, metal detectors," she said. "We're not going to do that."
Larimer Square caused a stir two weeks ago when it issued a memo to office and retail tenants, outlining a policy against guns and other weapons.
Property manager Joe Vostrejs said the memo was merely a reminder of existing lease agreements prohibiting guns or other weapons on the square.
"We're not anticipating problems," Vostrejs said.
Walking down the sidewalk, a shopper or diner wouldn't know about the no-guns policy, said Brett Warner, a sales associate at Z Gallerie in Larimer Square.
But he said he's not overly concerned.
"There's not that many people who are going to walk around with a gun, anyway," Warner said.
Up the 16th Street Mall, where there are signs prohibiting everything from skateboards to shoplifting and smoking, few if any signs address the gun laws.
Media Play doesn't have a sign, at least not yet, said manager Theron Holloway.
He and his co-worker, Vialpando, said they support laws that let people keep a gun at home, but they don't want guns where they work every day, where customers sometimes come in angry and where theft is common.
For now, most Denver business owners are willing to give the laws a little time before they rush to put up a sign.
Weiss said businesses also should prepare for other problems associated with the laws.
"Individuals will be challenging employers' rights and business owners' rights to prohibit guns," he said.
And insurance premiums could go up if insurance companies perceive greater risk with an increase of guns or gun violence in public places, Weiss said.
A no-guns policy that is clearly communicated to customers and employees could help reduce a business owner's risk, Weiss said.
Don't expect much of any change with businesses until a gun-related incident occurs, said Denver police officers Wayne Walters and Mark Moore, who patrol downtown on motorcycles.
Most gun violence inside bars or restaurants happens at closing time, when drunks exiting the bar grab a gun from their cars, Moore said.
Now, those people may already have their guns inside in a crowd of people.
However, Moore added, "criminals don't care about laws. They're going to have a gun whether they're allowed to or not."
Citizens who have called police regarding the new laws most often ask whether gun-related crimes increased in states with similar laws to Colorado, after those laws went into effect, said Steve Cooper, division chief for the Denver Police Department.
"Thus far, we don't have any data that supports that," he said, referring to about a dozen cities, including Dallas, Houston and Miami.
Citizens are also confused about the language under the open-carry law, which prohibits handling guns in a way that is threatening or alarming.
"We had one guy walking down the street wearing a firearm strapped to his hip," Cooper said. "That's alarming to a lot of people in Denver who aren't used to it, but the law allows it."
Police and other city officials worry that the more liberal gun laws, which will mean more guns, may also mean more problems.
"It's always been legal," assistant city attorney David Broadwell said of carrying concealed guns.
"What has changed is the sheer number of people who will be issued permits."
The new gun laws
The first law, introduced as Senate Bill 24, addressed concealed weapons.
Previously, citizens with a permit could carry a concealed gun in public.
However, the city of Denver was highly restrictive and issued few permits.
The new law mandates that any Colorado resident 21 or older, who receives proper training and passes a background check, will get a five-year permit.
Concealed weapons are prohibited in elementary and secondary schools and in government buildings with security screening.
The second law, introduced as Senate Bill 25, addressed the open carrying of firearms.
Prior to this law, Denver had ordinances that prohibited citizens from carrying guns on their belt, in their hand or somewhere else visible on their body.
The new state law took away the authority from Denver and other municipalities to regulate the open carrying of guns.
Because the state does not prohibit the open carrying of guns, citizens can legally do it without a permit.
Local governments do have the right to post signs at their building entrances prohibiting weapons inside.
Other gun issues
Other laws that address the use of weapons are still in effect. For instance, it is illegal to carry a gun while intoxicated. It is illegal to point a gun at another person or threaten or alarm someone with a gun.
Business owners and employers can prohibit guns inside their establishments. However, state officials have not directed business owners how to enforce such a policy.
The new gun laws went into effect May 17, even though the Denver city attorney's office is fighting them in court. City officials hope to win a judgment to keep 14 city gun ordinances valid and enforceable, including the regulation of concealed weapons.
Minding their business
Some issues for business owners to consider:
Whether or not they should have a policy about guns or weapons.
How to communicate that policy to workers and/or customers (with a sign, through advertising, in a contract, etc.).
How to enforce the policy.
What they would do if someone brings a gun on premises.
How to handle employees or customers who refuse to abide by their policy.
The implications and risks of not having a policy.
Review and possibly update insurance policies.
Oh My! They might all be crazed killers- Oh My!
http://www.denverpost.com/Stories/0,1413,36~33~1482592,00.html
New gun laws baffle businesses
Many cite lack of guidance on how to keep them out
By Kelly Pate, Denver Post Business Writer
Downtown business owners are frustrated and confused about Colorado's new gun laws.
Nick Frangos, owner of the Congress Lounge on East Colfax Avenue, posted a ‘No Guns’ sign at the entrance to his bar. The 75-year-old Frangos is concerned about patrons carrying legal weapons in his bar.‘It’s not like we are serving milk in here,’ he says.
They don't want guns in their establishments, yet few are willing to post a sign banning them. And some bar, restaurant and shop owners are queasy about telling a customer with a gun to leave.
"If a person came in here legally carrying a gun and looked at you the wrong way, how would you know whether he intentionally wants to harm you or wants to rob us? I wouldn't know," said Victoria Vialpando, a clerk at Media Play on 16th Street Mall.
"Thinking about it scares me," she said.
The two new state gun laws took effect May 17. One makes it easier to qualify for a permit to carry a concealed handgun. Previously, Denver issued such permits, but only under special circumstances.
The other law nullified Denver's ordinances that forbid the open carrying of weapons. So, citizens can carry a gun in the open, in their hand or tucked in at the waist, for instance, except in public and private buildings where signs prohibit it.
Business owners say they know it's now easier to get a gun and take it more places, but they say the state has offered no guidance about how to keep guns off their property.
"I think the big problem with the law is that it gives no guidance to employers and businesses about how to respond to the law or how to prohibit handguns," said Chuck Weiss, an employment law attorney with Faegre & Benson LLP in Denver.
One way for businesses to respond is with a "No Guns" sign, Weiss said.
In Minnesota, where similar laws are in effect, businesses that want to prohibit guns are required to post a sign, Weiss said.
"In Minneapolis, everywhere you go, you're going to see the exact same sign, same color, same size."
Nick Frangos, owner of the Congress Lounge on Capitol Hill, put a "No Guns" sign next to the front door, but he knows that won't necessarily stop someone.
"Eight or 10 years ago, this guy came in and he was intoxicated," said Frangos, who has had the bar since 1958. "I wouldn't serve him, and he took a gun out and put it on the bar. And you know what I did? I said, 'What are ya drinkin?' "
Unlike Frangos, some business owners are hesitant to post a sign.
"It would scare people off," said Christopher McPeek, who manages the Compound bar on South Broadway. "It's almost the idea you have to pat people at the door. It sends the wrong kind of message that maybe (people) shouldn't be here at this bar."
Cherry Creek mall is making no changes for now, said marketing manager Lisa Herzlich.
"In an establishment like the mall, if you're going to put a policy in place, you have to have everything to support that policy - searches, metal detectors," she said. "We're not going to do that."
Larimer Square caused a stir two weeks ago when it issued a memo to office and retail tenants, outlining a policy against guns and other weapons.
Property manager Joe Vostrejs said the memo was merely a reminder of existing lease agreements prohibiting guns or other weapons on the square.
"We're not anticipating problems," Vostrejs said.
Walking down the sidewalk, a shopper or diner wouldn't know about the no-guns policy, said Brett Warner, a sales associate at Z Gallerie in Larimer Square.
But he said he's not overly concerned.
"There's not that many people who are going to walk around with a gun, anyway," Warner said.
Up the 16th Street Mall, where there are signs prohibiting everything from skateboards to shoplifting and smoking, few if any signs address the gun laws.
Media Play doesn't have a sign, at least not yet, said manager Theron Holloway.
He and his co-worker, Vialpando, said they support laws that let people keep a gun at home, but they don't want guns where they work every day, where customers sometimes come in angry and where theft is common.
For now, most Denver business owners are willing to give the laws a little time before they rush to put up a sign.
Weiss said businesses also should prepare for other problems associated with the laws.
"Individuals will be challenging employers' rights and business owners' rights to prohibit guns," he said.
And insurance premiums could go up if insurance companies perceive greater risk with an increase of guns or gun violence in public places, Weiss said.
A no-guns policy that is clearly communicated to customers and employees could help reduce a business owner's risk, Weiss said.
Don't expect much of any change with businesses until a gun-related incident occurs, said Denver police officers Wayne Walters and Mark Moore, who patrol downtown on motorcycles.
Most gun violence inside bars or restaurants happens at closing time, when drunks exiting the bar grab a gun from their cars, Moore said.
Now, those people may already have their guns inside in a crowd of people.
However, Moore added, "criminals don't care about laws. They're going to have a gun whether they're allowed to or not."
Citizens who have called police regarding the new laws most often ask whether gun-related crimes increased in states with similar laws to Colorado, after those laws went into effect, said Steve Cooper, division chief for the Denver Police Department.
"Thus far, we don't have any data that supports that," he said, referring to about a dozen cities, including Dallas, Houston and Miami.
Citizens are also confused about the language under the open-carry law, which prohibits handling guns in a way that is threatening or alarming.
"We had one guy walking down the street wearing a firearm strapped to his hip," Cooper said. "That's alarming to a lot of people in Denver who aren't used to it, but the law allows it."
Police and other city officials worry that the more liberal gun laws, which will mean more guns, may also mean more problems.
"It's always been legal," assistant city attorney David Broadwell said of carrying concealed guns.
"What has changed is the sheer number of people who will be issued permits."
The new gun laws
The first law, introduced as Senate Bill 24, addressed concealed weapons.
Previously, citizens with a permit could carry a concealed gun in public.
However, the city of Denver was highly restrictive and issued few permits.
The new law mandates that any Colorado resident 21 or older, who receives proper training and passes a background check, will get a five-year permit.
Concealed weapons are prohibited in elementary and secondary schools and in government buildings with security screening.
The second law, introduced as Senate Bill 25, addressed the open carrying of firearms.
Prior to this law, Denver had ordinances that prohibited citizens from carrying guns on their belt, in their hand or somewhere else visible on their body.
The new state law took away the authority from Denver and other municipalities to regulate the open carrying of guns.
Because the state does not prohibit the open carrying of guns, citizens can legally do it without a permit.
Local governments do have the right to post signs at their building entrances prohibiting weapons inside.
Other gun issues
Other laws that address the use of weapons are still in effect. For instance, it is illegal to carry a gun while intoxicated. It is illegal to point a gun at another person or threaten or alarm someone with a gun.
Business owners and employers can prohibit guns inside their establishments. However, state officials have not directed business owners how to enforce such a policy.
The new gun laws went into effect May 17, even though the Denver city attorney's office is fighting them in court. City officials hope to win a judgment to keep 14 city gun ordinances valid and enforceable, including the regulation of concealed weapons.
Minding their business
Some issues for business owners to consider:
Whether or not they should have a policy about guns or weapons.
How to communicate that policy to workers and/or customers (with a sign, through advertising, in a contract, etc.).
How to enforce the policy.
What they would do if someone brings a gun on premises.
How to handle employees or customers who refuse to abide by their policy.
The implications and risks of not having a policy.
Review and possibly update insurance policies.
