COAL/cannulure question

[stonebuster]

I bought Xtreme 158gr RNFP 38 spl with cannulure to use with once fired Remington brass. Extreme manual says the COAL is 1.440" which doesn't quite reach the cannulure. I seated 12 of them to 1.433" and still didn't make it to cannulure. Extremes data uses Starline brass. Could that be the reason and does it matter since I've used Berry's with no cannulure successfully? I can't post pics now since my computer is down.

 

[Ru4real]

No, doesn’t matter much. Cannelure’s make the effort to roll crimp easier and give you a rough guess on OAL. That’s about it.

I roll crimp 38 Special brass with 158 JHP loaded to 357 Mag OAL numbers. So my loaded rounds have the bullet cannelure sitting about 1/8” above the case mouth.

 

[merlynski]

Look at the load data for your specific bullet, brass, powder and primer type, that should be correct for crimping in the cannelure.
Check your brass length, and maybe trim it.
If you are using .38 Spl brass the cannelure will not be in the correct place for .357 Mag OAL settings. If you load a .357 Mag powder charge in a .38 Spl case and crimp in the cannelure you are asking for a bad over-pressure situation. !

 

[Charlie98]

Maybe give us the whole recipe and we might have a better idea if it's going to be a problem.

 

[BBarn]

I've found the cannelure locations on X-Treme plated bullets aren't real consistent, sometimes even among the same lot. For the high volume 38 Special, set the OAL so the case mouth can be easily crimped into the bullet cannelure. No need to worry about whether it's a couple hundreths of an inch different than the load data.

 

[243winxb]

Plated bullets? Taper crimp. Test for bullet jumping crimp, if loading maximum.

There is .020" difference between trim length of maximum & minimum on both 38 spec. & 357 mag. They both headspace on the rim.

I see no reason to not crimp in the crimp groove? Use a starting load.

 

[.38 Special]

In this instance - as in most such instances - it's completely unimportant. As 243 says, crimp in the cannelure, start with the book minimum, and work your way up.

 

[stonebuster]

Maybe give us the whole recipe and we might have a better idea if it's going to be a problem.

I should've given more info. Since I started reloading 7 months ago I've been loading 38spl/38+P using xtreme FP (125 & 158gr)and HP38 per Hodgdon data for XTP.. I started with 3.8gr HP38 under158gr Xtreme FP and worked up to 4.3Gr HP38. When I opened a new box of xtreme today they were RNFP not FP. When I checked the Xtreme loading manual I found the COAL for 158gr RNFP but no data using hp-38. So...my recipe was for 38spl Xtreme 158gr RNFP over 4.3gr HP38. I didn't want to seat the bullet any deeper(to the cannalure) because I was concerned with over pressure. Since I've used Berry's plated bullets with no cannalure I figured I was safer stopping short and closer to coal. Hope it's more clear now.

 

[9mmepiphany]

Knowing which pistol you're going to shot it in would have been nice...but largely unimportant .

I've loaded that exact bullet many thousands of times as my practice ammo, using first HP-38 before switching to Clays. I've always loaded to the cannelure, mostly because it was easier than actually pulling the cartridge and measuring it. I've also loaded the Xtreme FP to the cannelure and it was just a simple few clicks on my Redding Competition Seating die...makes switching back and forth between bullets easier.

At the level that yo are loading your cartridges, shortening the OAL top crimp in the middle of the cannelure is pretty safe....I do roll crimp because I'm experiencing some bullet pull when shooting quickly. I've actually gone a couple of tenths hotter with HP-38 without issue...but I'm shooting mine in a S&W L-frame

 

[rfwobbly]

I should've given more info. Since I started reloading 7 months ago I've been loading 38spl/38+P using xtreme FP (125 & 158gr)and HP38 per Hodgdon data for XTP.. I started with 3.8gr HP38 under158gr Xtreme FP and worked up to 4.3Gr HP38. When I opened a new box of xtreme today they were RNFP not FP. When I checked the Xtreme loading manual I found the COAL for 158gr RNFP but no data using hp-38. So...my recipe was for 38spl Xtreme 158gr RNFP over 4.3gr HP38. I didn't want to seat the bullet any deeper(to the cannalure) because I was concerned with over pressure. Since I've used Berry's plated bullets with no cannalure I figured I was safer stopping short and closer to coal. Hope it's more clear now.

You are WAY over thinking this, brother.

► On all 38Spcl cartridge builds, regardless of what any manual says about OAL, do this...

• Seat until the case mouth is just at the cannelure and then roll crimp into the cannelure
• Begin at the Starting Load with each new bullet style, OR refer to previous load information in your personal notes*

* You are keeping a personal reloading notebook, correct ?

Hope this helps.

 

[stonebuster]

Thanks for your patience and one final question...Seating a158gr 38 cal RNFP xtreme into cannelure mearures coal of 1.411". The xtreme data says 1.440". So this isn't excessively short coal? My Lyman manual warns about excessively short coal/over pressure but doesn't define it. I usually shoot my 38spl loads in +P Model 10/64 but to be safe I could shoot this particular recipe in a Ruger GP100.

 

[stonebuster]

You are WAY over thinking this, brother.

► On all 38Spcl cartridge builds, regardless of what any manual says about OAL, do this...

• Seat until the case mouth is just at the cannelure and then roll crimp into the cannelure
• Begin at the Starting Load with each new bullet style, OR refer to previous load information in your personal notes*

* You are keeping a personal reloading notebook, correct ?

Hope this helps.[/QUOTE
Yes I keep a notebook detailing data for everything I reload. Being a rookie I err on the side of caution and seek advice from you experienced guys when I have a concern. Great advice and thanks.

 

[rfwobbly]

Thanks for your patience and one final question...Seating a158gr 38 cal RNFP xtreme into cannelure mearures coal of 1.411". The xtreme data says 1.440". So this isn't excessively short coal? My Lyman manual warns about excessively short coal/over pressure but doesn't define it. I usually shoot my 38spl loads in +P Model 10/64 but to be safe I could shoot this particular recipe in a Ruger GP100.

► That would be something to consider in a smaller 9mm Luger cartridge, but not so much is a 38Spcl. It has to do with the percentage of volume change under the bullet, NOT the change in OAL distance.

► Then again, with each new-to-you brand/style/weight bullet you should be beginning your testing over at the Starting Load. Starting Load makes up for a host of variables, even the ones you or I never considered. It's not called Starting Load because it sounds really good !

► Load manuals are "guides", not absolute truth. This is why there is so much variation from manual to manual. The admonition 'not load much deeper' is good advice to follow on all cartridges, but it's a general warning, not law. When you get to auto pistol cartridges, you'll sometimes be forced to load to a shorter OAL.

► Yes, I agree. Any personal doubts can be further eased by firing 6 rounds in your GP100, which is rated for the 2X higher 357Mag pressures.

► And I note that you said nothing about a personal load notebook. My friend, not keeping notes and records of ALL your reloading efforts is a MUCH BIGGER safety violation than loading to the cannelure.

All the best.

 

[rfwobbly]

Thanks for your patience and one final question...

Gosh, I hope not ! You should always be reading, learning and asking questions.

All the best.

 

[Walkalong]

Thanks for your patience and one final question...Seating a158gr 38 cal RNFP xtreme into cannelure mearures coal of 1.411". The xtreme data says 1.440". So this isn't excessively short coal? My Lyman manual warns about excessively short coal/over pressure but doesn't define it. I usually shoot my 38spl loads in +P Model 10/64 but to be safe I could shoot this particular recipe in a Ruger GP100.

.030 isn't that much considering the capacity of the case and the relatively low pressures you're running, but if you are concerned that much, don't load them shorter to the cannelure, load them to 1.440. The different brass isn't the issue as far as the cannelure reaching the case mouth.

You're worried about loading them shorter, but not about loading a plated bullet in place of a jacketed bullet, knowing that will affect pressure as well, which you have been doing all along.

That said, I am still a little confused because you go back and forth from "Hodgdon XTP" data to "X-Treme data" etc. I don't see any X-Treme W-231/HP-38 data in their PDF.

Substituting a plated for a jacketed bullet can change pressure, up or down. Changing OALs lengths obviously changes pressure. Longer less, shorter more (That one's easy).

W-231 isn't the best choice for +P in .38 Spl IMHO, something slower is better suited. I don't see any W-231/HP-38 data in the X-Treme PDF, so why are you concerned with their OAL shown there? Hodgdon .38 Spl +P online data shows a max of 4.6 Grs HP-38 and a 158 Gr XTP @ 1.455 OAL, which is even longer. 807 FPS.

I would suggest we have no idea what your pressure is on the ones you have been shooting, or will be with the different X-Treme bullet @ 1.140, 1.440, or 1.455 OALs.

The good news is .38 Spl pressures are low, giving you a little wiggle room in strong revolvers like your GP-100, but that doesn't give us carte blanche to go heavier on the data.

While you're probably "OK", did you work up the last load to 4.3 Grs? Do you know what those velocities were?

I load the X-Treme 158 Gr to the "canellure" (It's really just roll marks), but you don't have to. I worked up my loads with that bullet at that OAL, starting low. I have loaded it up to near max .357 velocities in .357 Mag brass, but fire most of them in light plinker loads in .357 Mag brass. My plinker load is in no manuals, but I am confident it is low pressure, and I use it in .357 revolvers. I have used it in plinker loads for .38 Spl, but prefer the Berrys 148 Gr HBWC for that (Gives better PF & PL numbers by reducing empty case space), although the X-Treme 148 Gr DEWC also shots well.

I checked my notes and I loaded the X-Treme 158 Gr SWC to 1.440 OAL when I tried it in .38 Spl. But it doesn't really matter if you load it to the cannelure or not and lightly roll or taper crimp. Like I said, it's just roll marks, not a real recessed cannelure to crimp into.

 

[stonebuster]

.030 isn't that much considering the capacity of the case and the relatively low pressures you're running, but if you are concerned that much, don't load them shorter to the cannelure, load them to 1.440. The different brass isn't the issue as far as the cannelure reaching the case mouth.

You're worried about loading them shorter, but not about loading a plated bullet in place of a jacketed bullet, knowing that will affect pressure as well, which you have been doing all along.

That said, I am still a little confused because you go back and forth from "Hodgdon XTP" data to "X-Treme data" etc. I don't see any X-Treme W-231/HP-38 data in their PDF.

Substituting a plated for a jacketed bullet can change pressure, up or down. Changing OALs lengths obviously changes pressure. Longer less, shorter more (That one's easy).

W-231 isn't the best choice for +P in .38 Spl IMHO, something slower is better suited. I don't see any W-231/HP-38 data in the X-Treme PDF, so why are you concerned with their OAL shown there? Hodgdon online data shows a max of 5.6 Grs HP-38 and a 158 Gr XTP @ 1.455 OAL, which is even longer. 807 FPS.

I would suggest we have no idea what your pressure is on the ones you have been shooting, or will be with the different X-Treme bullet @ 1.140, 1.440, or 1.455 OALs.

The good news is .38 Spl pressures are low, giving you a little wiggle room in strong revolvers like your GP-100, but that doesn't give us carte blanche to go heavier on the data.

While you're probably "OK", did you work up the last load to 4.3 Grs? Do you know what those velocities were?

I load the X-Treme 158 Gr to the "canellure" (It's really just roll marks), but you don't have to. I worked up my loads with that bullet at that OAL, starting low. I have loaded it up to near max .357 velocities in .357 Mag brass, but fire most of them in light plinker loads in .357 Mag brass. My plinker load is in no manuals, but I am confident it is low pressure, and I use it in .357 revolvers. I have used it in plinker loads for .38 Spl, but prefer the Berrys 148 Gr HBWC for that (Gives better PF & PL numbers by reducing empty case space), although the X-Treme 148 Gr DEWC also shots well.

I checked my notes and I loaded the X-Treme 158 Gr SWC to 1.440 OAL when I tried it in .38 Spl. But it doesn't really matter if you load it to the cannelure or not and lightly roll or taper crimp. Like I said, it's just roll marks, not a real recessed cannelure to crimp into.

Yes I started with the 158FP at starting load of 3.8gr and worked up. I will do the same with the RNFP 158s. BTW, the max load for a 158gr XTP is 4.6gr HP 38 for 38 +P and 4.3gr for 38spl not 5.6gr per Hodgdon data. I was using Hodgdon data for XTP before I found xtreme data yesterday when looking for coal for RNFP xtreme Thanks for the help.

 

[Walkalong]

BTW, the max load for a 158gr XTP is 4.6gr HP 38 for 38 +P and 4.3gr for 38spl not 5.6gr per Hodgdon data

Dang, I substituted 5 for 4 somehow. I'll fix that.

 

[rfwobbly]

Thanks for the help.

• Sorry, but you can't get rid of us that fast.
• Once you ask a question here, we always follow up by dropping by at inopportune times to waste all your primers, drink all your beer, and eat all your stakes... and not necessarily in that order.
• That next knock on the door will be us.