Cobray Terminator 12

[USAF_Vet]

Saw a video from Forgotten Weapons on the Cobray Terminator 12 gauge, and it brought up a question.

I know a semi-auto anything fired from an open bolt is considered a MG by ATF.
Does a single shot firearm, designed to fire from an open bolt, fall under the same restriction? I've heard this is the case, but there was no mention of the Cobray Terminator being NFA. Considering it would take a complete redesign to allow for loading multiple cartridges, I would assume a single shot, open bolt shotgun would be perfectly legal, but its the ATF we're talking about, the bureaucracy that has shoestrings as registered machine guns.

Despite being completely ineffective, the Cobray Terminator does look like an interesting novelty piece and the idea to clone one in my garage for a functional wallhanger did come to mind.

 

[4thPointOfContact]

I've heard it both ways; that the AFT stepped in and said, "Nope, ya not sellin' that anymore" and that it was not economically viable to continue being offered.

I'm unconvinced that it was ever meant to be economically viable and wasn't just a big F.U. to the AFT. As someone said to me, "imagine what would happen if someone were to drill a buncha little holes in the barrel and then replace the barrel shroud with something that didn't have holes in it. Do you think that might be ..... kinda quiet?"

 

[USAF_Vet]

Ian from Forgotten Weapons mentioned that, too. He clarified that Cobray made under 1500 of them, and manufacture stopped due to lack of interest and sales (dealer cost was $90 back in those days). I think the ATF "no-go" story was more "evil gun fear mongering" than anything else, but I still can't find anything definitive saying a single shot open bolt is NFA or title I.

 

[Ryanxia]

Well the one pictured above would be a short barrel shotgun (NFA) but in doing a image search it looks like they made versions that had longer barrels.

Hopefully someone else can clarify the open bolt single shot aspect.

 

[Fred Fuller]

Wouldn't a paltik/palluntod qualify as an "open bolt" design?



- See article at http://www.guns.com/2013/04/29/richardsons-philippine-guerrilla-gun-a-gun-to-get-a-gun/

 

[Storm]

Doggone, I had one of those. Probably worth a bit these days.

 

[USAF_Vet]

Well the one pictured above would be a short barrel shotgun (NFA) but in doing a image search it looks like they made versions that had longer barrels.

Hopefully someone else can clarify the open bolt single shot aspect.

Believe it or not, all the barrels on all Terminators (unless modified by the end user) are 18.5". This one looks short due to the barrel being set back in the 'fired' position, closed back on the firing pin. With the barrel forward in the 'safe' position or the 'ready' position, the barrel sticks out much further.

Kinda like some of the older 'blow forward' pistols of the end of the 19th and beginning of the 20th century. The Steyr Mannlicher 1894 being one example.

The Terminator acts like a 'Four Winds' style slam fire shotgun, which any rube can build for less than $20 at the local hardware store. The Cobray is only slightly better, in either design and function. Still want one.

 

[WardenWolf]

The Terminator is a reverse open bolt design that cannot possibly be converted to semi or full auto. It's a horrible design. I'm positive the ATF agent who reviewed it just shook his head, wondering who on earth could think that was a good idea.

 

[USAF_Vet]

Poor design or not, does the fact that there is absolutely no way for this to be converted into semi or fully automatic fire negate the previous ATF rulings of open bolt equals machine gun? A four winds style shotgun, providing it meets federal restrictions on barrel and overall length, should in no way be deemed a machine gun because of its ignition system, but I'm getting conflicting answers.

I'm going out on a limb in assuming that a firearm, designed and manufactured and a single shot, would be ok as an open bolt ignition system.

Maybe I should contact ATF directly and get something in writing.

 

[Storm]

I never shot mine. The darn thing scared me. It also had a nasty habit of rusting. I paid next to nothing for it and traded it for something also long gone.

 

[25cschaefer]

The National Firearms Act, 26 U.S.C. 5845(b), defines a machine gun to include any weapon which shoots, is designed to shoot, or can be readily restored to shoot, automatically more than one shot, without manual reloading, by a single function of the trigger.

The open bolt has nothing to do with it, it is the ability to be easily be converted to full auto. The terminator is a single shot.

 

[WardenWolf]

The ATF takes the position that any open-bolt self-loading firearm is just one step away from becoming a machine gun. They're not entirely wrong; all it takes is directly linking the trigger and the sear and it will cycle at full-speed as long as the trigger is pressed. Yes, it's possible to make a robust and reliable open-bolt semi-auto trigger system. Just look at mechanical paintball guns, the majority of which are blowback open-bolt designs. The trigger systems are simple and extremely reliable. However, even these can be fairly easily modified for full-auto fire (in one case by use of a simple pen spring).

At the end of the day, the only positive thing an open-bolt design gives is improved cooling. Everything else is negative (reduced accuracy and, often, reduced safety), and they can be made full-auto. Hence the general conclusion on the part of the ATF that open bolt = bad.