I don't understand why cocked and locked is such a glorious way to carry. Couldn't you get the same effect if you carried a DA/SA with the safety off. If you need that first trigger pull to be single action, couldn't you just as easily train yourself to cock the hammer as you raise the gun as train yourself to switch the safety off as you raise the gun?
Cocked and locked vs. DA/SA
- Thread starter cowssurf
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you could, but it would not be safe doing so, you could shoot yourself doing so.( think life and death struggle) I don't think anyone has ever had any probs with a double action pull in a life or death struggle.
also your not supose to take the safety off until the gun is up... same reason as above.
also your not supose to take the safety off until the gun is up... same reason as above.
silverlance
Member
I'm a firm believer in chambered, hammer down, da first shot.
that is why i own 9 sigs.
that is why i own 9 sigs.
TAB,
Why would you be more likely to shoot yourself cocking the hammer of a DA/SA than switching off the safety on an already cocked hammer of a SAO?
silverlance,
I'm not disputing that form of carry, in fact, I prefer it as well. All I'm saying is, for the crowd that always wants that first pull to be single action, why can't they cock a DA as easily as switch the safety off of a cocked SAO?
Why would you be more likely to shoot yourself cocking the hammer of a DA/SA than switching off the safety on an already cocked hammer of a SAO?
silverlance,
I'm not disputing that form of carry, in fact, I prefer it as well. All I'm saying is, for the crowd that always wants that first pull to be single action, why can't they cock a DA as easily as switch the safety off of a cocked SAO?
loop
Member
I carry my SAs cocked and locked. Carry my DAs hammer down, safety off.
Only problem I have is remembering if I'm carrying an SA or DA. Last few months I only carry DAs so I don't have to try and remember what I'm carrying.
I actually prefer SAs because the first shot is the light trigger pull and the same as every subsequent shot.
Life involves a lot of trade-offs so I generally carry DAs.
Significantly, DAs are faster, at least for me, in getting off the first shot. OTOH, they are not as accurate on the first shot.
Trade offs...
Only problem I have is remembering if I'm carrying an SA or DA. Last few months I only carry DAs so I don't have to try and remember what I'm carrying.
I actually prefer SAs because the first shot is the light trigger pull and the same as every subsequent shot.
Life involves a lot of trade-offs so I generally carry DAs.
Significantly, DAs are faster, at least for me, in getting off the first shot. OTOH, they are not as accurate on the first shot.
Trade offs...
I'm not asking anyone if they prefer Cocked and locked vs. DA safety off, hammer down. I'm asking why people who prefer the SA trigger pull and therefore argue for SAO cocked and locked why that is any different from training to cock the hammer of a DA/SA upon drawing. I know it's a specific question that may not come into play for most people, but a theoretical one that I'm curious to learn people's opinions on.
guntotinguy
Member
And the question in my own mind,if I had to pull the gun,would I have time to draw the hammer back?My own preference is cocked and locked,(ready to fire) on my ParaOrd Slimhawg.
IMO,in some situations we dont always 'think or react' rationally...so the quickest (and safest for yourself and possible innocents around you)is paramount.
IMO,in some situations we dont always 'think or react' rationally...so the quickest (and safest for yourself and possible innocents around you)is paramount.
chris in va
Member
Not possible on modern firearms without pulling the trigger.
I've thought about this issue before. If I had time, I would certainly thumb back the hammer first if I had to make the shot count, as with longer range targets. My DA skills are so-so at best. For close-in threats, no.
Brian Dale
Member
Ergonomics. It's more awkward, so it's not as easy and it's therefore slower. It's also more susceptible to error.cowssurf said:
The mechanics of the situation are determined by the way the human hand works.
Probably could have posted this in the Autos forum, by the way.
GuyWithQuestions
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- 451
I just carry "cocked and unlocked"
I just carry my single action (trigger not as sensitive as 1911's, but they're still claimed to be single action by the manufacturer because of the technical definition) Springfield Armory XD-9 cocked, and of course it's unlocked because there's no manual safety (don't worry it has passive safeties like a handgrip, special thing in the middle of the trigger, drop safety). My only manual safety that I use is my holster, which keeps unwanted fingers from going inside. It's easy to deactivate this manual safety, just pull it out of the holster. If I am somewhere in my home that I don't want to wear a belt, I just have the gun inside the holster, "cocked and unlocked", sitting next to me. I usually only do that in my bedroom, since I live in off-campus student housing apartments with room mates, and I don't want them to panic if they see a handgun (of course I live in Utah so I can carry up to campus). I feel safer with it chambered and cocked, and with no manual safety on it, because I want to shave off reaction time if I ever do have to use it. I don't fear a negligent discharge, because I follow the safety rules of not letting my finger go in the trigger, pointing it in a safe direction, etc.
I just carry my single action (trigger not as sensitive as 1911's, but they're still claimed to be single action by the manufacturer because of the technical definition) Springfield Armory XD-9 cocked, and of course it's unlocked because there's no manual safety (don't worry it has passive safeties like a handgrip, special thing in the middle of the trigger, drop safety). My only manual safety that I use is my holster, which keeps unwanted fingers from going inside. It's easy to deactivate this manual safety, just pull it out of the holster. If I am somewhere in my home that I don't want to wear a belt, I just have the gun inside the holster, "cocked and unlocked", sitting next to me. I usually only do that in my bedroom, since I live in off-campus student housing apartments with room mates, and I don't want them to panic if they see a handgun (of course I live in Utah so I can carry up to campus). I feel safer with it chambered and cocked, and with no manual safety on it, because I want to shave off reaction time if I ever do have to use it. I don't fear a negligent discharge, because I follow the safety rules of not letting my finger go in the trigger, pointing it in a safe direction, etc.
loop
Member
I'm DQ'd then. There is no way I'd consider trying to cock a DA pistol before firing.
Learn to shoot a DA. I shoot a DA-only 1917 S&W revolver in competition as well.
Why cock a DA when you can spend the time focusing on making the shot?
If you can thumb-cock a DA in the same time it takes you to release an SA safety - more power to you.
Do it against a clock. Want your times? Here they are: DA from open holster 1.2 seconds; SA cocked and locked 1.5 seconds; DA cocked to SA 1.8 seconds. These are averages for experienced shooters. Your times may vary.
Mess up your cocking on the DA and you'll be three swings of a baseball bat behind your first shot.
If I may throw out some facts. The average person can travel 21 feet in 1.5 seconds. The average shooter takes 1.5 seconds to draw, fire and hit center mass (based on SA auto). DA can take as much as two/tenths of a second off the draw/fire scenario. Hand cocking a hammer can add as much as 1 second.
The hand cocking of the hammer scenario puts safe distance at 32 feet instead of 21. That's 10 yards and a foot.
My DA time is .73. Do you really want yours to be 2.5? Or 2, or 1.5 or even 1?
My SA time is 1.3. If you're really, really fast your draw, cock, aim, fire time is 2.
Your concept of thumb cocking will only work if you have a lot of time. If not, you will lose the match. In real life you lose a lot more.
Learn to shoot a DA. I shoot a DA-only 1917 S&W revolver in competition as well.
Why cock a DA when you can spend the time focusing on making the shot?
If you can thumb-cock a DA in the same time it takes you to release an SA safety - more power to you.
Do it against a clock. Want your times? Here they are: DA from open holster 1.2 seconds; SA cocked and locked 1.5 seconds; DA cocked to SA 1.8 seconds. These are averages for experienced shooters. Your times may vary.
Mess up your cocking on the DA and you'll be three swings of a baseball bat behind your first shot.
If I may throw out some facts. The average person can travel 21 feet in 1.5 seconds. The average shooter takes 1.5 seconds to draw, fire and hit center mass (based on SA auto). DA can take as much as two/tenths of a second off the draw/fire scenario. Hand cocking a hammer can add as much as 1 second.
The hand cocking of the hammer scenario puts safe distance at 32 feet instead of 21. That's 10 yards and a foot.
My DA time is .73. Do you really want yours to be 2.5? Or 2, or 1.5 or even 1?
My SA time is 1.3. If you're really, really fast your draw, cock, aim, fire time is 2.
Your concept of thumb cocking will only work if you have a lot of time. If not, you will lose the match. In real life you lose a lot more.
Baba Louie
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Sure. I don't know why you would want to, but you could. Thumbing back the hammer is done every day for the single action shooting crowd... but their handguns require it, they know it, train for it and live with it.
Since we now have several different options in hammer/trigger operation available to us, why not pick one and simply train to master it, knowing that each has its own unique limitations and liabilities?
Or not.
Ske1etor
Member
I like carrying cocked and locked. The 1911 may have not been originally designed for this but with the thumb safety, grip safety and half cock notch Condition 1 is safe enough to carry and dangerous enough to protect yourself in a bad situation.
Like what was posted by Loop. Trade offs. I know that carrying any firearm with the hammer cocked could potentially lead to a accidental discharge. There is potential energy in the hammer and anything can happen, but having the thumb safety, grip safety, half cock notch and the fact that the trigger would also have to fail I consider it plenty safe.
I don't trust myself to have to manually cock the hammer in a bad situation. I also don't think I want to set myself up in a situation where I would have to rack the slide before being ready to fire.
Like what was posted by Loop. Trade offs. I know that carrying any firearm with the hammer cocked could potentially lead to a accidental discharge. There is potential energy in the hammer and anything can happen, but having the thumb safety, grip safety, half cock notch and the fact that the trigger would also have to fail I consider it plenty safe.
I don't trust myself to have to manually cock the hammer in a bad situation. I also don't think I want to set myself up in a situation where I would have to rack the slide before being ready to fire.
waterhouse
Member
While with a lot of training I'm sure it could be done fairly quickly, I doubt I could ever cock the hammer as fast as I can get off a thumb safety.
When my hand goes to the grip of a 1911, my thumb is already where it needs to be. To cock the hammer on a Sig (manually) would require an extra action, which, no matter how much I practiced, would be slower.
When my hand goes to the grip of my P7, my hand is already where it need to be. This is somewhat close to your point though, as technically I'm cocking the hammer as I squeeze the grip.
TexasRifleman
Moderator Emeritus
Sure, and your thumb can slip off the hammer and drop it to half cock, rendering your weapon useless for that half second when you needed it most.
You could do lots of things if you wanted to I guess, doesn't mean they are good ideas.
Not sure where you got the idea it was "glorious".
Using a firearm as the designer intended is now glorious?
Mmmmm kay......
tbreed725
Member
if the gun is desighned to be carried that way why not carry it the way it was desighned? as for thumb cocking a da/sa auto better to pull da first shot in my opinion.
Deanimator
Member
Depends upon whether you have hands the size of Shaquille O'Neil's. I don't, so most DA/SA autos don't fit my hands at all.
I'll stick with M1911s and Glocks.
Stump Water
Member
What waterhouse said. It's slower.
Go to the range with a timer and check your split times (holster to first shot) doing it both ways.
Yes... with practice you can be fast doing it either way. But the mechanics & ergonomics dictate that flipping the safety off will be faster than thumb-cocking (unless you're a southpaw and your SA auto doesn't have an ambidextrous safety).
Go to the range with a timer and check your split times (holster to first shot) doing it both ways.
Yes... with practice you can be fast doing it either way. But the mechanics & ergonomics dictate that flipping the safety off will be faster than thumb-cocking (unless you're a southpaw and your SA auto doesn't have an ambidextrous safety).
MachIVshooter
Member
I'm trying, but I can't think of any TDA auto's with a half cock position that won't fire from that position. The DA pull just becomes shorter.
That said, unless I'm in that one-in-a-billion scenario where a civilian needs to make a precicion handgun shot to save a life, I'm not gonna thumb the hammer back.
DougDubya
Member
Just train to be really good with the DA first shot and the subsequent lightening of the second shot. People who gripe about the "crunch-tick" must not enjoy shooting to ingrain solid weapon handling basics.
Thumbing the hammer back on a DA auto should only be for a very specific situation - ie: you have solid cover, and you need to make a hostage situation shot at long range. In which case, you should have brought the rifle with you that morning...
Thumbing the hammer back on a DA auto should only be for a very specific situation - ie: you have solid cover, and you need to make a hostage situation shot at long range. In which case, you should have brought the rifle with you that morning...
Ranger Rog
Member
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- Mar 11, 2008
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- 56
First Shot........
Howdy, your first shot should be the best it can be.
You figure out what you are the most comfortable with and train accordingly.
With all the options available some thing will work for you.............
I read this above and am dumbfounded:
"I was trained in firearms. I’d walk to the hospital when my husband was sick. I carried a concealed weapon. I made the determination that if somebody was going to try to take me out, I was going to take them with me." --Senator Dianne Feinstein
Feinstein has been an enemy of gun owners and a proponent of gun confiscation since day one.......She is no friend of the NRA...........
http://www.alphadogweb.com/firearms/Diane_Feinstein.htm
Howdy, your first shot should be the best it can be.
You figure out what you are the most comfortable with and train accordingly.
With all the options available some thing will work for you.............
I read this above and am dumbfounded:
"I was trained in firearms. I’d walk to the hospital when my husband was sick. I carried a concealed weapon. I made the determination that if somebody was going to try to take me out, I was going to take them with me." --Senator Dianne Feinstein
Feinstein has been an enemy of gun owners and a proponent of gun confiscation since day one.......She is no friend of the NRA...........
http://www.alphadogweb.com/firearms/Diane_Feinstein.htm
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