Cocked and locked vs. DA/SA

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Only IF one uses bad form, develops a bad habit/s

Quote: you could, but it would not be safe doing so, you could shoot yourself doing so.( think life and death struggle) I don't think anyone has ever had any probs with a double action pull in a life or death struggle.

*also your not suppose to take the safety off until the gun is up... same reason as above.
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Ummm, No, and *No.. (decocker-only gun)

Having both type ccw guns, and usage, training, staying current with each type gun I carry, applying 1, of the 4 rules of safety, is the key. And when one pulls out, and follows proper-procedure of trigger finger out of trigger guard, off trigger, one can easily thumb-cock a modern, newer, DA/SA gun without fear of thumb slippage and hammer falling back (and gun going boom) as all my guns have a key safety feature that stops the hammer from hitting the firing pin, for just that reason. Honestly, it has never happened with all my quick practice drills, and the only real danger area with either gun is in decocking them, IF one uses his thumb and trigger to decock a gun "with a decocker", as opposed to using, like with my Sigs, decocker's-only, no safety, how they should always be decocked..

But, with any of my cocked and locked SAO, they have 2 safeties, palm grip, and key, thumb-slide safety release, and with usage, staying consistent with one's ccw type guns, IF one must decock a SAO without a decocker, then it is a learned "thumb and index finger" tight squeeze on the hammer with trigger pull to let it down safely, and has always worked as taught, and learned, and practiced.. Like good habits.


DA/SA without safeties, like my Sigs decockers-only, offer both a full, fairly heavy 10lb full DA pull as a secondary safety measure, but again, pulling out, or holstering, in proper procedures, is with trigger finger out of, and off the trigger, and works without fail, again, with lots of usage/practice and making of good habits, which again, go right along with pulling out one's DA/SA gun and thumb-cocking it into SA mode at the same time, can all happen very fast, very safe, and be most effective, for such an event.


Ls
 
I prefer cocked and locked because teh first shot is going to count. With a high stress situation adding to my fine motor skills abilities, I prefer a clean breaking single action over a longer/harder pull. Just my wants -vs- needs I guess. SOme dont preer it that way though and I myself may not one day. But for now its cocked and locked and arent we all glad of options :)
 
arent we all glad of options
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Yep, and THAT .......IMHO is what it comes down to, "personally" I'm used to the DA/SA transition and feel VERY confident and comfortable with that others however may not feel the same.

After all it's YOUR life that may be one day on the line.....so it's up to YOU to decide what feels "right" for YOU IMO
 
It's personal preference. As long as you're being objectively safe, it doesn't matter as long as you shoot what you carry well. If that's DA/SA, great. If it's C&L, great.

As someone who carried a duty gun that was DA/SA for years, I can tell you that I want nothing to do with DA/SA guns. I dislike the two trigger pulls. Your first shot counts, perhaps counts the most, and it is probably your worst shot due to the need to do the DA pull.

Is this able to be overcome via training? Absolutely. Is this a function of what gun you use (ie, are some guns better than others)? Of course. Is this all personal preference? Yep.

Would I willingly go with a DA/SA gun for personal defense again? No. I far prefer C&L and striker-fired (eg, Glock, XD, M&P).

Mike

PS You do NOT want to be monkeying around with cocking a DA/SA as you draw. If you think you can do this smoothly enough to be an advantage, you're not training hard enough, or under enough stress, or under the right kind of stress (think grappling drills with de-activated guns- under real stress you will revert to training, and if you're training to draw and cock the gun you will try to draw and cock the gun while wrestling with an opponent, which is a recipe for major problems).

Mike
 
Agreed, IF..

Quote: PS You do NOT want to be monkeying around with cocking a DA/SA as you draw. If you think you can do this smoothly enough to be an advantage, you're not training hard enough, or under enough stress, or under the right kind of stress (think grappling drills with de-activated guns- under real stress you will revert to training, and if you're training to draw and cock the gun you will try to draw and cock the gun while wrestling with an opponent, which is a recipe for major problems).

Mike
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If for any reason, the BG gets within, or much closer, that 16ft.. it's gonna be a full DA pull, hopefully with one's gun that has much usage, to be a smooth and crisp DA pull, or had the trigger/pull worked, or shortened. SA (situational awareness) is one's best first-line-defence here.

But IF I had only one choice, I have no doubts, it would be SAO, locked and cocked, same light, crisp, trigger pull each, and every-time.. is the sweetest, most dependable, bar none, IMHO.


Ls
 
"I don't understand why cocked and locked is such a glorious way to carry. Couldn't you get the same effect if you carried a DA/SA with the safety off."

Because I LIKE cocked and locked. What difference should it make to you how I want to carry?
 
Originally posted by cowssurf[/B:
As Chris noted, on modern firearms, the gun doesn't go bang without pulling the trigger. I think most DA/SAs like mine would go to quarter cocked if your thumb slipped.
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You think it will go quarter cocked. However if the gun is broken or malfunctioned it might not.

The reason for me is that I don't like to have to place my thumb behind the slide unless I absolutely have to. That is a great way to get injured.
 
Quote: "I don't understand why cocked and locked is such a glorious way to carry. Couldn't you get the same effect if you carried a DA/SA with the safety off."
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It's no so much "glorious" as to the ability to, while physically engaged, tight arena, so to speak, that using just one hand, one can carry, with 2 safeties in place, yet, with a one-handed draw out, release the thumb-slide-release of any SAO gun, be it a 1911 or Sig SAO, etc., and get a shot, the first and most important shot, with a sure, "easy" light, pull, which offers far greater accuracy, than carrying a DA/SA with a safety OFF, or one that has no Safety, such as Sigs, decocker-only, yet one handed, must pull and then pull a far longer, harder 10lb trigger pull weight which when things are a bag of worms, can well mean a bad shot with such a long, much harder/10lb, trigger pull, while maintaining the guns aim, vs a 3.5lb SAO light trigger pull, the gun will not be nearly as effected, aiming/point wise with the forces of any trigger pull and weight, and distance, that go along with these factors.


Hope that gives you a clearer picture of not being glorious, but a known fact, with most that have a lot of time put in using both style guns for the same style conflict, the SAO is going to get the most votes thru experience learned, both thru facts, (demonstrations) and known physical forces both, on the brain, and thru muscle memory and use, during split second events..


But, as I said, and believe 100%, DA/SA (no safety) is good, great, along with using vigilent/prudent SA (situational awareness) as all good things come in good time for most, or should I say, many.

It's all about reflection, by those that have been there, lived to talk about it, and those that did not, which could be a story about one's cocked and locked 1911 or Sig, etc., with both safeties ON and the BG got it but did not know how to take the thumb slide safety off, and the GG came out alive because of that fact, or the BG won the fight because he got the GG's DA/SA (no safety, one way or another, decocker-only) and shot the GG with his own gun..

It's what has been learned by those that won and lost and what we, the GG's, garner/take from such events, and utilize to our best abilities with what may, or may not, give us the better odds is the way I see it all, and nothing is glorious from it, or by it, in my book.



Ls
 
Well it's not a silly question but it's not worth arguing over.

I prefer single action pistols, specifically the 1911 platform and the BHP. So I've trained with them.

If I preferred a Sig, Berretta 92, or another da/sa pistol I'd train with that and in most cases use the da first shot. If I wanted to take a first shot sa and had the time to do so, I'd cock the hammer manually. As in taking a long first shot at a target 25 yards away where my best accuracy was needed. But that first da shot is done for speed.

The real question is: Why did they develop da/sa pistols in the first place? Why the P38? And why did various militaries and law enforcement follow the German's lead?

tipoc
 
tipoc said:
The real question is: Why did they develop da/sa pistols in the first place? Why the P38? And why did various militaries and law enforcement follow the German's lead?
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My guess is that it was easier to safely transition people who had been trained and experienced with double action revolvers, to double action autos.

Similar manual of arms and fewer worries about people who haven't been drilled on keeping their finger off the trigger.

Of course there is too, always the issue of people who (for some reason :confused:)get the willies from seeing a cocked hammer.
 
Tipoc - the DA was developed because locked and cocked carry was not common practice until after the 1950's.

Walther ads made a lot of the fact that the PPK/P38 didn't have to be cocked first to fire.

A common tale - I forget the exact Texas Ranger named - carried his Colt 1911 with the grip safety tied down by a leather thong, and the safety in the off position at half-cock. And he'd only tied down the grip safety due to his inability to fire his thumb-cocked 1911 because he couldn't depress it.

When asked, while carrying it, if the gun was dangerous that way, he said, paraphrasing, it wouldn't be any good if it was a harmless gun.

Edit - and what JesseL said about finger off the trigger. DA is more "flinch-resistant."
 
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Thank you everyone for all the responses. You've helped me out. You see, I don't own a 1911, but I do own a DA/SA. I don't train to cock the hammer. I train to shoot first shot double action. I was just curious as to why it couldn't be done just as well. A number of people have pointed to ergonomics, something I'm not familiar with on a 1911 since, as I said I don't have one. So thanks everyone for the input. It was more just a theoretical question.

To Ranger Rog:

Did you really not understand that my signature quote was chosen for its irony? I can think of nothing sillier than Dianne Feinstein talking about how she used to carry concealed. It's like Rosie getting upset that we want our guns to protect ourselves while she doesn't have to worry since she pays her bodyguard to do for her what we do for ourselves. I'm certainly not quoting Dianne Feinstein because I think she is on the side of gun owners. Didn't anyone get the joke of it?
 
Don't change it..

Quote: Did you really not understand that my signature quote was chosen for its irony? I can think of nothing sillier than Dianne Feinstein talking about how she used to carry concealed.

*It's like Rosie getting upset that we want our guns to protect ourselves while she doesn't have to worry since she pays her bodyguard to do for her what we do for ourselves. I'm certainly not quoting Dianne Feinstein because I think she is on the side of gun owners. Didn't anyone get the joke of it?
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Some people don't read so well, or read it all first, before responding..

Just a quirk, in some, in such a rush to get it out in print.. (their thoughts)

I got it, still do, think it's perfect, and *the Rosie rational brought it more home with a bigger laugh from me..

Ya can't make'em all happy, or understand.. or laugh


Ls
 
"The real question is: Why did they develop da/sa pistols in the first place?"

Like the CZ75 which is DA/SA but with no decocker, the DA provided a second strike capability if you hit a hard primer (common malady with military ammo).
 
The CZ75 can also be carried C&L. A very versatile gun, a favorite of mine.

tipoc
 
Cowssurf, I get it now, here in Ca we have been fighting this pair for years and it is frustrating at best to see them re-elected over and over. I have a better sense of humor than that. Some people do not have any idea what gun grabbers our senators are here..............over
 
When SHTF, the less you have to do, the better. I like Glocks for this reason. I have all the different platforms, and the Glock is the easiest for me. What ever you carry, practice with it alot, cause you may remember only half of it in a real live or death situation.
 
Ranger Rog,

I feel your pain. I was born in Santa Clara (no issue county). I live in Utah, but will be moving back to Cali soon. Work says I should be in LA, but OC is a shall issue county. CA is my home and my favorite place, I just wish they trusted me to carry a gun, since only law-abiding citizens will ever ask for permission anyways. It's such basic logic it boggles the mind. Stories like the two jackasses that murdered that poor prep star because they thought there might be the remote possibility that he belonged to a different gang only makes me want to carry that much more.

By the way, I didn't know Rosie was elected to office? Dianne Feinstein's hypocrisy absolutely disgusts me.
 
I know that USPSA is a game, it is not a real life defensive shooting scenario.


However, I will submit this tidbit.


I had been shooting USPSA for months with my CZ 75B, starting cocked and locked.



We had a concealed carry practice night, with everyone shooting the courses of fire with their carry gun.

So I was using my Sig P225, and a good friend of mine used his 226. Upon watching the tapes, I noticed that he manually cocked his weapon once he had it on target.

It slowed him down substantially, and at the ranges we were shooting, there was no accuracy benefit.

If you have to draw and fire in self defense, you might not have the luxury of a two handed grip, nor the time to cock the gun (Which requires an awkward shift of the strong hand to accomplish).

You might not even have time to wipe off the safety of a 1911. I'm not bashing a 1911 for concealed carry. But I am happy with my Sig. I would consider a glock for concealed carry, and a 1911 running a close third.

You aren't even going to feel or remember pulling the trigger if you are shooting in defense of your life. Fine motor skills go bye-bye in high stress situations with lots of adrenaline. Muscle memory will still be present. So practice that trigger pull!!!!
 
You might not even have time to wipe off the safety of a 1911. I'm not bashing a 1911 for concealed carry. But I am happy with my Sig. I would consider a glock for concealed carry, and a 1911 running a close third.
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It's called "muscle memory", you practice anything long enough, you don't need to send a conscious mental command to do the action.

If you can put your finger on the trigger every time, you can swipe the thumb-safety without any thought. Has anyone ever forgotten to press the trigger before?
 
IMO,

It comes down (again) to what YOU are used to and prefer, it's your life that may be on the line.

I don't agree that C&L is the "answer all" either, in fact for those who have in the past (or present and still do) carried "bobbed hammer" revolvers (all D/A shots) the first D/A shot isn't "too tough" and IF others are needed, well they're S/A anyway :) (which beats the revolver analogy IMO)

A D/SA (decocker) model is a great choice for many IMHO, certainly not all, but neither is C&L .....

IMO there is NO "one size fits all" answer to anything , especially SD handguns....
 
The 1911 may have not been originally designed for this
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Actually, it was designed for that. Functional proponency was with the Cavalry, and they demanded both the safety lock and the grip safety. Browing himself didn't see the need, but went with what the customer wanted.

The idea is that a cavalryman might wind up with a cocked and loaded pistol in one hand, and wounded, berserk horse in the other. He needed an absolutely safe way to holster his pistol and devote his attention to the horse.

The Army always preferred Condition 3 (magazine loaded, chamber empty) but authorized Condition 1 (cocked and locked) when carrying the pistol loaded in expectation of immediate action.

(Condition 2, chamber loaded, hammer down, by the way, was never authorized.)
 
You might not even have time to wipe off the safety of a 1911.
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If that's the case, you don't have time to draw the gun, either. Done properly, the safety comes off as the gun comes out of the holster. If you train it that way, and train it to proficiency, you will never end up in a situation where you can get the gun out but cannot get the safety off. The key, though, is training. If you don't train, or don't train properly, you run the risk if screwing it up under pressure.

The differences between sweeping off the safety and manually cocking a DA/SA are, to my mind:

1. Choosing to cock or not cock is a choice. In a SHTF situation, you want to have as few decisions to make as possible. Merely having to decide which you want to do takes time and slows you down, even if you default to leaving it uncocked and going DA. The best case scenario is that you completely forget about your "cock or don't cock" decision and just pull and yank the trigger, but you cannot rely on that happening. People who do training will tell you about watching people freeze up at a decision point, or make a decision to go one way and then execute the plan like they went the other. KISS.

2. You can sweep off the 1911 or BHP safety from your shooting grip. Indeed, if you're doing it right, sweeping off the safety should become a part of your shooting grip. You cannot cock the hammer of a DA/SA gun from a proper shooting grip. So, you will have to draw the gun, abandon your grip, cock the gun, then rebuild the grip. This slows you down. Can you practice this to the point that you can do it smoothly? Maybe- and you'll still be slower than a mediocre shooter who is running a SA gun properly.

Mike
 
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