Cocked and locked vs. DA/SA

[tipoc]

IMO there is NO "one size fits all" answer to anything , especially SD handguns....

This is true. Shooter preference. Train with the platform you prefer.

I used to own a number of Glocks, a few Sigs, a Beretta 92 and a couplea Smiths. Whenever I shot them I'd go to swipe off the safety and take my usual thumb high hold. When there wasn't a safety there I'd stop, look at the gun to see what was the matter and say "Oh, it ain't a Colt." So I drilled holes in all of 'em and installed false thumb safeties, worked for awhile, except that they all felt, well, not at all like a 1911.

tipoc

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Done properly, the safety comes off as the gun comes out of the holster.

A proper draw stroke with the M1911 terminates with the thumb on the safety, finger indexed beside the trigger guard. To fire, you merely close your hand.

 

[IndianaBoy]

It's called "muscle memory", you practice anything long enough, you don't need to send a conscious mental command to do the action.

If you can put your finger on the trigger every time, you can swipe the thumb-safety without any thought. Has anyone ever forgotten to press the trigger before?

If you had read just a teensy bit further into my post. You would have seen that I am familiar with muscle memory. I'm not bashing the 1911 platform. For me, the DA/SA system is more comfortable. As usual, your mileage may vary.

 

[IndianaBoy]

1. Choosing to cock or not cock is a choice. In a SHTF situation, you want to have as few decisions to make as possible. Merely having to decide which you want to do takes time and slows you down, even if you default to leaving it uncocked and going DA. The best case scenario is that you completely forget about your "cock or don't cock" decision and just pull and yank the trigger, but you cannot rely on that happening. People who do training will tell you about watching people freeze up at a decision point, or make a decision to go one way and then execute the plan like they went the other. KISS.

2. You can sweep off the 1911 or BHP safety from your shooting grip. Indeed, if you're doing it right, sweeping off the safety should become a part of your shooting grip. You cannot cock the hammer of a DA/SA gun from a proper shooting grip. So, you will have to draw the gun, abandon your grip, cock the gun, then rebuild the grip. This slows you down. Can you practice this to the point that you can do it smoothly? Maybe- and you'll still be slower than a mediocre shooter who is running a SA gun properly.

1.) That's why I train to always fire my first shot DA. You only 'have to decide' if you are inconsistent in your training. I recognize that there is no alternative to drawing a 1911 and disengaging the safety. But having the mechanical capability to manually cock a firearm that is DA/SA is not a flaw. In my opinion. Thankfully, you don't have to let me pick out your carry gun for you.

2.) I mentioned my friend losing time at a USPSA shoot because he decided to go SA with his first shot, basically saying exactly what you just said. We concur 100%.


Regards,

Indy

 

[Mikhail Konovalov]

Here here on training how you carry. First shot on every mag of my Jericho is DA.

But, as far as carry rationale goes, I really ride the fence as to which I like, C&L or DA. Either one works fine for me. I practice on both, and once my CHL papers clear (@&%$!*&^!@!!!), I'll probably carry both. I'll say this, though...

No matter what I'm pulling out of my holster, my thumb will always sweep down, whether there's a safety there or not.

Call it a CYA if you like, I call it instinct.

 

[tipoc]

A proper draw stroke with the M1911 terminates with the thumb on the safety, finger indexed beside the trigger guard. To fire, you merely close your hand.

True in part. If an immediate shot needs to be made and the decision to shoot has been made, the proper way is for the safety to come off on it's way to the target. The finger remains outside the trigger guard till the target is acquired.

tipoc

 

[hybridgenius]

I believe you should just carry what feels more "safe" to you. Forget all that "experience" talk and why cocked and locked is for experienced users because a BG cant take safety off in time. Let me tell you something, all these BGs dont believe in "safety" so either way ya losing. Like stated above, only SELF AWARENESS will be the factor in saving your life. Other than that, carry how you like as long as ya comfortable enough to know you can be calm to handle things(because panic is what screws things up alot). If I carry my DA/SA I have it decocked with safety on and certain days I will carry my SAO 1911 cocked and locked.

 

[tipoc]

I asked the question somewhat rhetorically before on why da/sa in the first place.

The first da/sa pistol was the Austrian "Little Tom" in the early 1920s. It did not do too well. This was followed by the Walther PP in '29 or so and the PPK a few years later. Both were immediately popular and went into service with law enforcement in Germany and elsewhere. They were advertised as being safer to handle and carry than their sa pocket gun rivals. I think they likely were for the majority of users. They were a revolutionary development at the time.

When the German army replaced the Luger they went with a da/sa P38 with an exposed hammer and manual decocker like the PP/PPK. Unlike most other European armies the German set out to arm many of their line troops with a side arm. They figured that they had to train a couple of million men rapidly, most of whom were unfamiliar with handguns. So they came up with a pistol that was SAFER to use than a single action gun for minimally trained troops.

The long heavy first shot trigger pull of the P38 helped to decrease a/ds. The manual decocker eliminated the a/ds associated with lowering the hammer on a live round, which happened in the field. Like the PP/PPK their was a loaded chamber indicator on the gun so you knew by sight and feel if your piece was loaded. The gun could be safely carried hammer down on a live round ready for a da first shot. The decocker also acted as a safety. The piece was safe if dropped or thrown. If one had time the exposed hammer allowed for quick cocking for a more accurate sa shot. Hard to believe now but the P38 was a revolutionary development. It rpoved it's utility during the war and afterward. It was all over but the shouting for any law enforcement agency or army to field anything else but a similar type gun.

For armys and law enforcement it reduced training time and accidents which they always want to do.

Jeff Cooper argued that a da/sa pistol was "A solution in search of a problem". He argued that all one needed was more training time with the 1911 or the BHP or similar sa pistols. He was right and also wrong. From the point of view of individual shooters the 1911 is a good platform given training. From the aspect of training and equipping large numbers of troops or officers, with little to no experience with handguns or interest in them, the da/sa pistol has won the fight. It is cheaper and easier. With law enforcement the da/sa and later guns like the Glock or dao pistols were useful for liability reasons as well.

With better da trigger pulls the da/sa guns are as useful as any BHP. Shooter preference.

tipoc

 

[Coronach]

1.) That's why I train to always fire my first shot DA. You only 'have to decide' if you are inconsistent in your training. I recognize that there is no alternative to drawing a 1911 and disengaging the safety. But having the mechanical capability to manually cock a firearm that is DA/SA is not a flaw. In my opinion. Thankfully, you don't have to let me pick out your carry gun for you.

I think we agree 100%.

My critique was specifically in response to the idea that cocking the gun is similar in nature to sweeping off a safety, and that you can always just choose not to cock the gun and go DA if you're in haste. Nothing more. I agree 100% that the proper way to do it with a DA/SA is to train to shoot from DA the first time- period! If you run into a situation where you need to make your first shot a very very accurate one and you have time to ponder the options, you can then consciously decide to cock the gun, assume a supported position, and take the shot. But yeah, if you carry a DA/SA gun, you need to train with the assumption that your first shot will always be a DA shot. I agree that having the option isn't a flaw, but that training in a manner that requires you to make the choice at the very instant that you should be drawing and blasting a rapidly approaching opponent is.

I just don't like DA/SA guns, but I freely admit that this is personal preference. I don't see a lot of objective difference between a DA/SA and a SA gun as long as the shooter has trained adequately with their weapon. I just really don't like having to learn two trigger pulls for one gun.

Mike

 

[meef]

In the mid 1980s I competed in IPSC using my Browning BDA .45, the precursor to the SIG P220.

I shot mostly against 1911s and was frequently ridiculed (friendly, of course) for trying to play the game without a "real" pistol. DA/SA trigger? Bottom of the grip magazine release? Stock sights? Why on earth would I put myself at a disadvantage like that?

Bottom line is I won many more matches in my class than I lost and almost always finished in the top three, usually the top two.

I didn't find the DA/SA transition to be a handicap in the slightest. And a big plus for me was that my gun just kept on flawlessly ticking when the 1911 guys were cussing and clearing their various malfunctions.

Having said all that, now in 2008 - my favorite pistol and my chosen carry piece is a SIG P220 Carry Elite SAO. While I have no problem with DA/SA - I really do prefer cocked and locked. Now I can have it in a SIG!

Best of all possible worlds for me.

 

[Rexster]

meef, I have never competed in sanctioned events, but I did well enough in an autopistol transition training class with an early SIG P220, which had the Euro-style mag release, against athletic hotshots with their 1911 pistols. I had previously carried Colt Commanders as duty pistols, but finally got frustrated with reliability issues, and went with the P220. It definitely took some time to adapt to the DA/SA transition, but I adapted, and our final qual was shot competition style, and I was either first or second; can't remember for sure, this being in the early 1990's, and not the only firearms class I attended.

BTW, even though this was a revolver-to-auto transition class, I had already been carrying autos for several years, as a quirk in policy allowed us to switch to autos without first taking the class, as long as we completed the class by a certain date.

Just to be clear, I later owned reliable 1911 pistols, and still have one of them. I currently must use a .40 autoloader as a duty pistol, and am thankfully given a choice of several makes/models, privately purchased, so I use SIG P229s. I could still use my 1911 on my own time, but don't presently do so, as I believe in my serious pistols operating in a similar manner, and after 24 years of wearing a big-city police badge, find anything from .357 mag/SIG on up, with premium ammo, to be suitable for fighting.

On topic, DA/SA or Condition One, both work fine, and so does DAO. If a clumsy ox like me can learn all of these three systems, just about anyone can do it. Mastering all three at once may be a tall order, and that is why my 1911 hibernates in a very secure safe for now.