Cocked and Locked...

[NeuTom72]

Hello all...

I have a question that I'm sure has been asked many times before. I carry a Browning HP compact clone. As we are all aware, the Browning HP is single action pistol. The question I have is this... how safe is it to carry a pistol cocked and on safe? If I were in a time of need, I worry about having to pull the hammer back before I could shoot.

Tom
Minnesota

 

[Marko Kloos]

Cocked and locked carry (also called Condition One) is the best way to carry a single-action autopistol like the Browning HP or the 1911. Tens of thousands of experienced gun toters do it every day.

If you need some time to get used to cocked and locked carry, try to carry your HP around in the house for a week cocked and locked on an empty chamber. By the end of the week, you'll have greatly increasedconfidence in this carry mode when you see that the hammer did not fall on the firing pin once.

You are correct, it's much quicker and safer in a self-defense situation to flick off the safety than to cock the hammer. The cocking movement requires more dexterity that you may not have under stress, and it also leaves you open to letting a half-cocked hammer slip from underneath your thumb.

 

[SodaPop]

If you need some time to get used to cocked and locked carry, try to carry your HP around in the house for a week cocked and locked on an empty chamber. By the end of the week, you'll have greatly increasedconfidence in this carry mode when you see that the hammer did not fall on the firing pin once.

That's exactly what some one told me over at TFL years ago and it helped with my insecurity. I have no worries about carrying cocked and loaded anymore.

 

[Chupacabra]

Same here. At first, the idea of carrying my firearm with a round in the chamber and the hammer back kinda freaked me out. I guess I didn't entirely trust myself. But then I just told myself that I know exactly how the gun operates and it's not going to go off unless I make that decision. I got over the psychological block and now it is natural and comforting carrying that way.

 

[FJC]

A good article on the subject, entitled "Cocked & Locked - Is it dangerous?"

http://www.sightm1911.com/lib/tech/cockedandlocked.htm

 

[Tacblack]

It took me a while to get used to it also. Not much more than a week, that was 11 years ago. I carry an old lock and cock Taurus 92 and 1911-2011's this way. It is the only way to carry a condition one gun, I like and have good positive safty levers on my guns.

 

[Majic]

It is in fact more dangerous to carry the BHP with a round in the chamber and the hammer down.

 

[WonderNine]

It is in fact more dangerous to carry the BHP with a round in the chamber and the hammer down.

Agree. I carry mine cocked and locked or empty chamber. Usually C&L. I have two leather holsters for the Hi-Power, one IWB and one OWB for open carry. For both holsters the retention strap will not snap unless the hammer is cocked and out of the way. Tend to think of it this way, not only is there a safety on, and the trigger must be pulled for the gun to go off, but there is also a piece of leather in between the hammer and firing pin and there is also the half cock safety in case the sear AND the safety fails.

Imagine how Glock owners feel. No safety and no leather to block the hammer. So as you see "looks are decieving". Just like how 'evil black rifles' are no more deadly than a politically correct .270 deer rifle.

 

[TarpleyG]

the idea of carrying my firearm with a round in the chamber and the hammer back kinda freaked me out

Many folks think like this but I guess the "outa sight, outa mind" rule is in effect for all the Glockers out there. If I cannot see the hammer, it MUST be all the way down, right? Not. Yet they don't give it a second thought.

GT

 

[Southern Raider]

Actually, with the Glockers it is "If I cannot see the hammer, it MUST not exist."

Glocks don't have hammers. They are striker fired, and while at rest, the striker is almost entirely at the rest position and has nowhere near the energy stored to fire a round.

 

[Nero Steptoe]

I wonder if anybody really believes that, were JMB in his prime today, his current "best" pistol design would be the same as when he was restrained by 19th-century technology? He'd probably be carrying a Glock, with a round in the chamber!

 

[Old Fuff]

One problem with the Browning Hi-Power and Condition One (cocked & locked) is the small thumbpiece or "paddle" on the thumb safety. You might want to look into one that's better. I suggest: www.cylinder-slide.com

 

[Majic]

Nero Steptoe,
Maybe JMB did consider the striker fired action even with his 19th century restraints. After all, the striker fired system was developed before then in the form of a bolt action rifle. Trigger cocking systems were developed in the double action revolvers.
Not to steal the thread, but Gaston Glock was only inovative in creating a different package of tried and true designs. Reciprocating slides, striker fired actions, tilting barrels, safety levers, and use of polymers were all used in firearms long before the Glock came off a production line.

 

[seeker_two]

It is in fact more dangerous to carry the BHP with a round in the chamber and the hammer down.

I wholeheartedly DISAGREE. It's no less safer than C&L. And, with practice, it's just as easy to cock the hammer as to thumb off the safety.

Whether you decide on Condition 1, 2, or 3; make sure you PRACTICE drawing & firing (dry-fire) many times until the muscle memory develops. Practice can help you get accustomed to any action.

 

[Tamara]

Wal... er, Nero Steptoe,

I wonder if anybody really believes that, were JMB in his prime today, his current "best" pistol design would be the same as when he was restrained by 19th-century technology? He'd probably be carrying a Glock, with a round in the chamber!

JMB's worst designs have trigger pulls that feel like Hammerli Free Pistols compared to the Austrian Drastic Plastic, but then JMB wasn't working in the modern litigious environment, where everybody wants someone else to pay for their foul-ups. Nothing wrong with the Glock; it's a splendid example of a rugged and reliable modern service pistol intended to be carried in crappy environments by conscripts who may not be too sharp on cleaning and are instructed to carry chamber-empty. In a good holster, by a trained shooter, I wouldn't hesitate to recommend chamber loaded carry. You may note that the 1911 started life the same way; perhaps in 90-some-odd years the Glock will evolve to where the 1911 is now and our grandkids will be debating the merits of the Biometric-Scan-Action Blastomatic 3000 versus the antique Glocks that some skilled old-timers insist on using.

 

[Majic]

Seeker_Two,
Some if not all, I'm not up to date on BHPs, don't have firing pin block safeties. With a round in the chamber and the hammer down, a solid hit on the hammer can discharge the cartridge. That's why condition 2 has always been frowned upon in single actions such as the BHP and the 1911. It is also one of the reasons for the new safety devices put on some of the 1911s.

 

[Nero Steptoe]

Was just using Glock as a figurative example of current technology. I was, of course, being hypothetical, but you can bet that JMB designing today would design a pistol substantially different from the magnificent 1911. I don't see that the 1911 has really done too much evolving, except that there's a cottage industry of highly-paid, talented artisans who do an excellent job of dressing that fine anachronism up a bit.

In no way was I implying that any gun designers associated with G. Glock are in the same universe, talent-wise as JMB. JMB, in my humble opinion, was genius enough that he woudn't be offended by polymer and other technologies that weren't available to him.

 

[Majic]

I see your point, but actually handguns in general haven't really made much progress since JMB. New materials are being used, such as the polymers and metal alloys, and different manufactoring techniques are created. Older designs are modified, but haven't really evolved into something totaly different. I guess it really shows how no one has of yet brought to market a radically new design since the old masters of yesteryear.

 

[Edward429451]

Cocked & Locked is the proper way.

Every once in awhile something comes along that accidently turns out perfect in all aspects. Like 308 winchester or strawberry ice cream. The 1911 is one of those. Its never really been improved upon, sure they polish it up and soup it up but it's still a 1911 platform.

John Moses Browning. I wonder if JMB was a christian? It may have been a design inspired by God its so good. I'm sure God knew good men would be needing a 45 about then when the technology of War was really starting to take off, and thereafter also.

Praise the Lord and God Bless John Moses Browning, whereever he is.

 

[Sean Smith]

It is intersting how little semi-automatic handguns have improved since the 1911. I like alot of non-1911s, don't get me wrong, but it is food for thought:

Almost all of them use the same operating principle as the 1911. The swinging link is usually replaced with a solid cam-type deal like a BHP, but functionally there is no difference. Some lockup in the ejection port instead of using lugs, but that has the disadvantage of making the slide blockier and bulkier. Double-stack mags are nice (hey, Browning stuck 'em in the BHP), but they compromise the ergonomics and increase bulk. Bushings are no longer "in" for barrels, but aside from simplifying manufacturing bushingless barrels don't really do anything special for you. And while DA and DAO and Safe Action triggers may be more lawyer resistant, they sure don't help you actually hit the target compared to a good SA trigger.

It would be fun to speculate on what Browning would do different...?

Titanium frame and forged 4340 carbon steel slide and small parts with some wonder finish like NP3, tennifer or hard chrome
Linkless and bushingless barrel system
Modern high-visibility sights
No grip safety or spur-type hammer that could bite
Possibly a different extractor design (though I think JMB would be smart enough to avoid that modern "innovation" known as MIM that makes the old extractor design look bad in the first place... )
The trigger would be single action with a crisp pull, but since he was an excellent salesman he'd call it something else to make it sell better in the 21st century, something like "the patented fail-safe triple block trigger system (TBTS)," or something

Models in different calibers would have modifications from the factory to insure correct timing and reliable extraction in the higher-end calibers like 10mm and 9x23 that he'd certainly embrace.

 

[Standing Wolf]

I don't often carry my model 1911, but when I do, it's always the way John Moses Browning designed it to be carried: cocked and locked.

 

[10-Ring]

how safe is it to carry a pistol cocked and on safe?

As long as you dedicate some real training time, it's safe!

 

[clem]

Mine is my duty weapon and it is carried "cocked & locked", as per Rules & Regs for the department.

 

[DBR]

Edward429451:

I believe JMB was Morman.

 

[Shake]

Not to get off topic, but not only was JMB a "Mormon" (or member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints), he was one of those pesky missionaries that you see out riding their bikes.

In fact, in one history he reportedly saw his first Winchester manufactured rifle design while serving his mission in the south.

******************

I ditto what has been said above. Carry cocked and locked on an empty chamber for as long as you need to feel comfortable doing so, then make the switch. If, after doing that, you still feel uncomfortable with it, it may not be for you.

Shake