College Presidents: How Many Students Have to Die Before You Allow Guns on Your Campu

[chieftain]

Very good article.

For your consideration

Fred

College Presidents: How Many Students Have to Die Before You Allow Guns on Your Campus?
By Doug Giles
Saturday, February 16, 2008

“Fear no man of any size, call on me and I’ll equalize.” —Common engraving on Frontier firearms

“Call me simple. Call me a redneck. Call me whatever the heck you wanna call me—but until we allow credible and licensed, proven and protective professors and students to carry a weapon (gun) on campus, we will see this murderous madness occur again and again and again.”

That paragraph was lifted from my April 21st, 2007 column from Townhall.com right after Cho Seung-Hui (or Seung-Hui Cho, however the heck you arrange his name) killed 32 students on Virginia Tech’s campus. Remember that?

As I easily predicted back in April 2007, here we are, less than a year later, being forced to watch (one more time) a bloody yet easily-remedied BS scenario from hades unfold upon our nation’s young people.

Last Thursday at Northern Illinois University, the now resident of hell, Stephen Kazmierczak, strolled into a class packed with 162 students and opened fire with a shotgun and three handguns, killing five students and wounding sixteen others and firing over 50 rounds before the toad killed himself (why can’t they start with suicide?).

Un-be-lievable.

The victims, Gayle Dubowski, 20, Catalina Garcia, 20, Julianna Gehant, 32, Ryanne Mace, 19, and Daniel Parmenter, 20, were accomplished students full of life, hopes and dreams that were cut down before they ever hit their stride. If that happened to one of my kids I would be gutted and extremely PO’ed that their campus had pretty much nothing in place to stop this kind of mayhem. No one was there to stop Kazmierczak. A prof or an “of age” licensed to carry student with a pistol probably could have.

The NIU slaughter—which was, by the way, one of 45 shootings (five this week) since 1996 that have occurred on campuses in the United States in “gun free zones”—will not be the last. The mass murderers among us have taken quite the shinin’ to shooting up our students at their schools. The principal reason is that it’s so easy for them to carry out their death wishes because university officials will not allow good guys with guns to carry in class and be an onsite deterrent to death-dealing dillweeds.

Hey, “all wise” college presidents and other admin wizards: Until you allow guns—real guns, guns that go bang and kill bad guys—you (to make it personal), your faculty and the students you’re responsible for will continue to be sitting ducks, potential fleshy sponges to soak up the hot lead from some pathetic loser’s happy trigger finger. The gun free stuff ain’t working.

I know what you’re thinking: “It’ll never happen at my school.” That’s probably the same smack the chiefs at the 45 schools and universities since ‘96 thought right before their students were perforated by bullets flying anywhere between 1200 – 2800 feet per second.

Now I’ll be the first to admit, I am not nearly as astute as the suits that head up our nation’s bastions of higher edumication, but as a simple man, I’m smart enough to know that you should never bring a knife to a gun fight, and if the mass murderers are using guns, maybe, just maybe, you guys ought to get one—or ten.

Listen, Dr. Numbnuts, all the talk you guys have been doing about proper precautions on campus, all the extra fat security cops you’ve recently employed with faster golf carts, shinier badges and long range pepper spray are no threat to a perp with a gun and the attitude to use it. A chunky butt security guard with a plastic dollar store badge and a 6-year-old can of mace on a golf cart is no help when the hellion shows up in your auditorium with a 12 gauge and three handguns.

Yes, if your foe has a gun, then he has a solid and deadly advantage, and the cops can’t get there fast enough to do much about it.

Yes sir/madam, when this type of stuff hits the fan your campus must have deadly force on the spot to counter deadly force. Duh. That is unless, of course, you’re cool with our kids being killed. I, However, am not. And as a parent of a college student I will go so far as to buy my daughter’s entire campus pistols for the guards, trained profs, and legal students if they will finally do the math and realize that putting guns in the hands of trained good guys is the only way to daunt murderous goons.

Doug Giles’ new book “A Time to Clash: Papers from a Provocative Pastor” is now available. Ann Coulter says "Doug Giles’ A Time to Clash is a substantive and funny tour de force for traditional values.” Doug’s award winning talk show and video blog can be seen and heard at www.ClashRadio.com.

 

[cambeul41]

http://townhall.com/Columnists/Doug...e_to_die_before_you_allow_guns_on_your_campus

 

[Starship1st]

I saw Geraldo Rivera on Fox and Friends last Friday and they were discussing the carry of guns by responsible citizens and Geraldo baulked at the idea.

Geraldo still thinks the calvary will arrive in time on college campus?

 

[silverking]

Geraldo is a sensationalist twit!

What I would like to see is a count of how many educators are in favor of being armed. I seems there would be enough to at least give the nut-case shooters a change of heart----but then maybe not. OK then, let's get those responsible students armed also!

 

[doc2rn]

Wasnt he the war journalist who jumped on the band wagon and gave away the position of the troops he was imbedded with? I would take what he has to say with a stiff shot of tetnus.

 

[Old Fuff]

It is obvious to anyone with common sense that posting a sign that says, “Our campus is a gun-free zone.” Or writing regulations in the student’s handbook, isn’t going to hinder in any way a determine killer that’s willing to give up their own life in exchange for a chance to make a statement and go out in a blaze of glory.

It is equally clear that the more time the killer has before an armed response arrives, the longer the list of victims will be. It is a proven fact that instant response equals fewer dead and wounded, but decision-makers are determine to insure the killers will have all the time they need.

The sad fact is that the people who run our educational institutions (and that includes their law enforcement forces) don’t have any common sense. Their idea is to build a communication system that will inform everyone on the campus of what is happening within 20 minutes, when the incident will probably be over In 10 or less. As the quoted article points out their policies simply insure a higher body count. And no, there is nothing we can do about it. So long as “educated fools” are in charge the killing will go on, and with the mass media encouraging copycats the incidents may increase.

 

[Javelin]

Wasnt he the war journalist who jumped on the band wagon and gave away the position of the troops he was imbedded with?

Sure... especially when he said he was in combat with a staged tank behind him that was miles and miles from anywhere near a warzone. Don't forget that one.

 

[Tribal]

Be careful about taking a hostile tone until other efforts have been exhausted. As much as I wanted to walk up to my university president and ask him what the proper procedure according to the Code of Conduct is when trapped in a room with a murderer, I wrote a very polite letter asking precisely what I was asking him to do (allow CHP holders to carry without fear of academic discipline), why he should do it (the recent shootings), why CHP holders can be trusted (thorough background checks; discreet carrying), and offering to meet with him to better explain my request. I know that he's very busy right now (more so than most other university presidents at the moment), but he asked me to contact him again once things have slowed down a little bit.

I'll let you all know how it goes. Sometimes demanding a right isn't as effective as simply asking a bureaucrat to minorly change a regulation. We've got a long way to go to get gun rights properly protected, so let's be sure to pick our battles wisely. If we can prevail on a few reasonable university administrations to allow students to discreetly arm themselves, others more on the fence may see that it doesn't provoke harm and might be willing to allow it themselves.

 

[Oleg Volk]

Note that 4 of 5 victims were under 21. That's another problem even with most of shall-issue states -- people under 21 have no legally recognized right to self-defense.

 

[gbran]

Notice a common witness story here too. Many said the shooter calmly reloaded, then proceeded to shoot again. Sooner better, but this sure seems a good time to take the shooter out.

Prior to 9/11, we assummed airline hijackers wanted to negotiate. Not anymore. Now we take these guys out at all costs.

I think we can also assume a fellow showing up shooting at a school or other locale, intends many victims.

 

[Titan6]

Note that 4 of 5 victims were under 21. That's another problem even with most of shall-issue states -- people under 21 have no legally recognized right to self-defense.

Age discrimination is still a bad across the board problem in America. Until we change that they will continue to be victims. I rely on 18-20 year old Soldiers and Marines every day with guns all of descriptions to help keep me safe. They do have lots of training, but there is nothing to keep 18-20 year old civilans from training either...

 

[Blarelli]

Does anybody know if there are any other states besides Utah that allow carry in state schools?

 

[Ohio Rifleman]

Note that 4 of 5 victims were under 21. That's another problem even with most of shall-issue states -- people under 21 have no legally recognized right to self-defense.

You said it, Oleg.

At 20, I can go to war and die for my country, vote for our next leaders, smoke myself to death, but can't have a handgun to defend myself with? Though I believe Indiana and a few other states do issue CCWs to people 18+

 

[Car Knocker]

=Tribal] If we can prevail on a few reasonable university administrations to allow students to discreetly arm themselves, others more on the fence may see that it doesn't provoke harm and might be willing to allow it themselves.

I think you (and the author of the article cited in the OP) will find that college presidents and administrators don't have the authority to allow on-campus CCW in most states; existing state law precludes CCW on college campuses in most states. Voters (that's all of us) have to demand that legislatures repeal existing laws that make campuses such fertile hunting zones for these criminals and make it known that those legislators and elected officials who fail to comply with the public's will in this matter will be voted out of office and replaced with those who respect their constituent's wishes.

 

[jgo296]

im with you guys i picked up the campus newspaper at my school and read about the shooting right above the newspapers was one of those glass cases
one of the signs in it spoke of 2500 dollar fine and 6 years in prison for having a gun on campus
but rest assured if someone comes in my class shooting im going to throw a book and a pen at them

 

[Titan6]

I think you (and the author of the article cited in the OP) will find that college presidents and administrators don't have the authority to allow on-campus CCW in most states; existing state law precludes CCW on college campuses in most states. Voters (that's all of us) have to demand that legislatures repeal existing laws that make campuses such fertile hunting zones for these criminals and make it known that those legislators and elected officials who fail to comply with the public's will in this matter will be voted out of office and replaced with those who respect their constituent's wishes.

In Virginia they did and we all know how that turned out...

 

[WAID]

Car Knocker, from what I've seen(although I have only looked at Idaho recently) is the restrictions are school policy on college campuses not state law, in fact in Idaho according to the AG it was unsure whether the colleges actually had the authority to restrict concealed carry.

I wanted to add, and if any one has an answer to this I'd like to know because I don't, have authorities even made it in time to stop a school shooter? (I think they stop one of the high school ones at some point, columbine maybe, but the shooter has usually finished his deed and finished himself by the time the cops show up. I'd be really interested in finding average response time for notification and police arrival, because our campus police department has assured us of a 30 second response time at least to one building and I suspect it will take longer than that for them to even be notified of whats going on.

I was just reading another thread that mentioned the text messaging system and it only took 20 minutes to notify 86% of the students(apparently the other 14% get to figure it out on their own). I have a couple problems with that system, mainly that cell phones shouldn't be on in a class, they are more than a little annoying going off in class.

 

[Dorryn]

NY, the state everyone assumes is horribly liberal, DOES allow CC on campuses. All you need is the permission of the President/Dean. Who are liberal. So its a de facto ban, rather than a legal one.

I wrote two letters in grad school requesting permission to carry, and even though it was 2-3 blocks from some of the most dangerous areas in Buffalo, my request was denied. Not that I was terribly surprised, but I digress.

 

[bogie]

Yeah, Oleg, but with over 100 folks in the room, there was a darn good chance that at least someone would (a) qualify for a CCW, and (b) actually have one.

Deterrence over gun-free anyday.

 

[RedLion]

Note that 4 of 5 victims were under 21. That's another problem even with most of shall-issue states -- people under 21 have no legally recognized right to self-defense.

I still don't understand the 21 age thing. Is three years a good indicator of maturity? Like others have said, the United States of America has relied on people my age (18) and even younger ( civil war) to defend the ideals of this country since it began.

Here is a story about John Clem, a 9 year old who fought for the Union army during the civil war

"Born at Newark, Ohio, in 1851 as John Joseph Clem, he ran away from home at age nine to become a Union Army drummer boy. He attempted to enlist in May 1861 in the 3rd Ohio Volunteer Infantry, but was rejected on account of his age and small size. He then tried to join the 22nd Michigan, which also refused him. He tagged along anyway, and the 22nd eventually adopted him as mascot and drummer boy. Officers chipped in to pay him the regular soldier’s wage of $13 a month, and finally allowed him to enlist two years later.

In the Battle of Shiloh, in April 1862, Clem's drum was smashed by an artillery round and he became a minor news item as "Johnny Shiloh", the smallest drummer. In September 1863, at the Battle of Chickamauga, he rode an artillery caisson to the front and wielded a musket trimmed to his size. In the course of a Union retreat, he shot a Confederate colonel who demanded his surrender. After the battle, the "Drummer Boy of Chickamauga" was promoted to sergeant, the youngest soldier ever to be a noncommissioned officer in the United States Army. In October 1863, Clem was captured in Georgia by Confederate cavalry while detailed as a train guard. The Confederate soldiers took his uniform away from him which reportedly upset him terribly--especially his cap which had three bullet holes in it. He was exchanged a short time later, but the Confederate newspapers used his age and celebrity status to show "what sore straits the Yankees are driven, when they have to send their babies out to fight us." After participating with the Army of the Cumberland in many other battles, serving as a mounted orderly, he was discharged in 1864. Clem was wounded in combat twice during the war."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Clem

It definitely sounds like he was too immature to protect himself. :banghead:

 

[Tribal]

I think you (and the author of the article cited in the OP) will find that college presidents and administrators don't have the authority to allow on-campus CCW in most states; existing state law precludes CCW on college campuses in most states.

Well, yes and no. As executives, they don't have the power to change the Code of Conduct...but they do have the ability to make it known that CC will not be punished under their watch. More importantly, though, they have more pull with the Board of Visitors (...of Regents, ...of Governors, etc.) who are the ones who can actually change the rules. If you can win the president over, you've made huge progress.

That said, it's always good to have more than one plan in motion. Getting your state legislature to declare that de facto bans on handguns on campus works, too, but that's not the subject of this thread.

 

[au1776]

I think we need to be especially careful about our approach to this. As a full time grad student I fully support concealed carry on campus, but I'm also opposed to some of the rhetoric people propose.

We need to be careful not to make it sound as though we're simply using tragedy to further our agenda, and also to acknowledge that guns in the classroom aren't a magic solution. None of us knows for sure what would have happened at NIU or VT. While I too think that perhaps the situation could have been mitigated, I think coming off as arrogant will harm what we're trying to do.

I think most people are taking the proper approach, which is that many of us can protect ourselves almost everywhere BUT where we spend the bulk of our time. It is ridiculous that people have to abandon that right to pursue higher education.

 

[JohnL2]

Common sense in college academia? That's a good one. Real knee-slapper.

 

[TX1911fan]

How come when one of these shootings occurs, the people they send are not the traffic cops without guns, nor the regular cops with regular guns, but the SWAT guys, with Special Weapons And Tactics. If the Special Weapons are needed AFTER the shooting occurs, don't you think they are needed DURING the freaking shooting? When the cops start showing up to shootings unarmed, then I'll accept the idiot reasoning of people who advocate "gun free" zones.

 

[Oana]

You can catch more flies with honey than vinegar: I think this particular article, while certainly to the point, is a little in-your-face for what we're trying to accomplish. As Tribal put it, be careful about taking a hostile tone immediately.

existing state law precludes CCW on college campuses in most states.

Actually, even in California, CC by a permit holder is allowed by state law! It's the individual college polices that threaten expulsion of students, etc. This, IMHO, can be a huge talking point: We're allowed by law to do X, so why is this college putting further restrictions on us?