Collusion among gun dealers at gun shows perhaps?

[danprkr]

They all have the same blue book of gun values and/or internet sources. They all know what they can sell for which is set by the buyer. Heck at a gun show you can even know what their rent and lodging costs since most of that information is available on the promoter's web site. The only 'variables' are cash on hand, their stock level, and fuel. Since for the most part fuel will average out since there's only so far they will travel for a show. With that in mind it should be no surprise that most offers are in the same range.

 

[danprkr]

In my experience it is the dealers, particularly at gun shows, who are guilty of amping up the prices on "custom Mousers" and third rate dregs. And they can be stubborn beyond all reason. Which may be one reason gun shows are dying.

Funny I've heard that same complaint for 30 years at gunshows. Along with that same prediction that they are dying. Yet there's a gunshow nearly every weekend within nice driving range of my house. Heck where I live in that 30 years my town has gone from one a quarter to 2/month in that time. Just something to ponder.

 

[dogtown tom]

Cosmoline:.....Which may be one reason gun shows are dying.

Nonsense. There are significantly MORE gun shows now than any point in our country's history.

In the Dallas-Ft Worth area we have LARGE (1,000 tables or more) gun shows three out of four weekends nearly year 'round.

 

[simonm2211]

Collusion and cartels are extremely hard to put into practice. The problem is that every member of the cartel has a market incentive to break the cartel agreement/collusion agreement.

This is true.

There is very little margin in guns compared to other products. Gun dealers of all kinds have an unenviable task in trying to make a buck. There are many good people and a few bad just like anywhere else. But collusion is not going to work well for long for any of them and if you don't like people who buy for 50 cents and sell for a dollar, well, that's capitalism folks. Go try the alternative.

 

[CAR-AR]

I don't to gun shows very often unless I'm low on reloading supplies or I'm looking for a hard to find part (like a Winchester Model 43 magazine) and I have always been treated courteously by the dealers that send me around for what I'm looking for; they tell me to check another table and it might be there or sent to another table, pretty nice people.

 

[Neverwinter]

if you don't like people who buy for 50 cents and sell for a dollar, well, that's capitalism folks. Go try the alternative.

I am indifferent toward the businesses who are trying to make a profit by competing within a free market. What I don't like are uninformed consumers that erode the basic premise of capitalism.

 

[rooter]

Most local shops here attempt to take advantage of you on both ends. They try to convince you your gun is flawed and worthless, yet their guns are unflawed and in demand, thus their price is firm. The goal of running a successful business is to turn a profit ethically, not gouge your customer and make them feel bad while walking away! Choose an honest markup, pay a fair price for used guns, and ask a fair price for yours. Don't try to convince me my gun is a POS and point out every flaw on it, just shoot me a price and we'll deal or I'll walk.

Most local shops treat customers like crap, this is why four have had to sell out or close down altogether. I won't buy squat from a lowballing jerk. In fact, I just saw a guy I recognized as a dealer (walking the show and posing as an everyday Joe) swindling a guy out of two guns at lowball prices. I butted in and asked to see the guns, the dealer interjected and said he was buying them, I replied that I would pay the seller $100 more for them and fished the money out of my wallet. The dealer got red faced and outbid me by $10.

Scum sucking dealers can sink to the bottom of the ocean IMO.

 

[mizzlep]

I think buying a used gun is a lot like buying a used car...
Best to avoid dealers if you aren't 100% certain of their reputation. I think a gun show is a bad place to buy newer style guns, or used guns from dealers. They are fine for buying surplus and ammo, and possibly selling a weapon.
But, the dealers are going to charge what they think someone will pay. If someone wants to pay $5000 for a Mosin, that's their business. Consumers need to be much more scrupulous.

Personally, I couldn't sell someone something for WAY more than it's worth...that's probably why I'm not a salesman. I can't blame someone else for trying though; now lying to people and defrauding them is another story.

 

[Obsidian]

Think its just gun shows that are giving "lowball" Prices on firearms? Try selling something at Gander Mountain or other chain establishments. It is the same thing. And then a heavy markup. They get away with it because people purchase it at that price.

But, try trading in your car at a auto dealership. It is the same deal. Its not a ripoff if your willing to sell at the price. And the dealer has to make a profit on the item. If your firearm is valued at 500 bucks, and the dealer gives you 500 for it, what is the incentive for him to even bother with being a dealer? If you do not like the price go elsewhere.
I don't think there is a total set up going on at most gun shows. It would become more apparent sooner if it was the case.

 

[Ignition Override]

People keep comparing gun shows to competition in the petroleum industry.
There are about a dozen guys in the US - at the Chicago Board of Trade, and Wall Street - who generally control the price of gasoline in the US.

As for gun shows, I would rather feel and inspect a gun there, or in a gun shop, with no extra shipping+FFL costs.
It is difficult to trust some unknown seller's description and a few photos taken in a dim light and put on "GB".

In stark contrast, I can easily trust "Joesalter.com" up in NH, having bought an Enfield from his business.

 

[oneounceload]

not gouge your customer

No such thing as gouging if you willingly participate

I just saw a guy I recognized as a dealer (walking the show and posing as an everyday Joe) swindling a guy out of two guns at lowball prices. I butted in and asked to see the guns, the dealer interjected and said he was buying them, I replied that I would pay the seller $100 more for them and fished the money out of my wallet. The dealer got red faced and outbid me by $10.

You seem to have a problem with someone making a profit in business. Again, if the seller was willing to sell then at that price, then he wasn't lowballed. If you were so concerned about the seller getting a fair price, you wouldn't have let the dealer outbid you by $10

 

[dogtown tom]

rooter:...I just saw a guy I recognized as a dealer (walking the show and posing as an everyday Joe) swindling a guy out of two guns at lowball prices.

"Posing as an everyday Joe"? OMG! OMG! Gun dealers in disguise?
This is definitely an unethical action on the dealers part as everyone knows we are always supposed to be in coat and tie with a name badge that says "Got FFL?" on it.

Some of you guys need to spend a few minutes reading a dictionary before posting. Using terms like "swindling" or "collusion" can get you in serious trouble for slander or libel if you don't know what those words imply.

 

[kdave21]

I sure grow weary of dealer bashing.

Obviously there are cheats out there. Those dealers wont last long, nor should they. There are dishonest doctors, dishonest car dealers, and even dishonest priests. Guess what? There are a LOT of great doctors, car dealers, and priests out there also. This the world we live in. Grow up and stop stereotyping.

For the person who is upset when dealers try to make money, I encourage them to go to their boss tomorrow at the factory or wherever they work and let him/her know they want to give their raise back and that they only want enough to eek by on. Until that happens, dont be hypocritical.

For the person who thinks a perfect gun dealer should offer 90% of retail value for guns he is buying, and sell the same gun for 20% below retail value out of fairness to the buyer... well I encourage that person to get an FFL and see how it works out for them.

 

[stonecutter2]

I never fault anyone running a business for trying to turn a profit.

If something is overpriced, no one will buy it, and the price will eventually be reduced for less profit, but an eventual sale.

 

[stonecutter2]

Most local shops here attempt to take advantage of you on both ends. They try to convince you your gun is flawed and worthless, yet their guns are unflawed and in demand, thus their price is firm. The goal of running a successful business is to turn a profit ethically, not gouge your customer and make them feel bad while walking away! Choose an honest markup, pay a fair price for used guns, and ask a fair price for yours. Don't try to convince me my gun is a POS and point out every flaw on it, just shoot me a price and we'll deal or I'll walk.

Most local shops treat customers like crap, this is why four have had to sell out or close down altogether. I won't buy squat from a lowballing jerk. In fact, I just saw a guy I recognized as a dealer (walking the show and posing as an everyday Joe) swindling a guy out of two guns at lowball prices. I butted in and asked to see the guns, the dealer interjected and said he was buying them, I replied that I would pay the seller $100 more for them and fished the money out of my wallet. The dealer got red faced and outbid me by $10.

Scum sucking dealers can sink to the bottom of the ocean IMO.

So, in the OP, the purchaser of the S&W gave $400. Should he have offered the guy $600?

In the thread that is linked to, I see nothing but congratulations, great buy, "you made out like a bandit." If a dealer buys the S&W for $400, or $300, why is he a scum sucking bottom feeder? Because he resells it purely for profit? Without dealers, who would sell guns? Would you sell guns at cost just to give them away at no benefit for your time, any employees you need, rent? At what profit margin does one become a scum sucker?

Do you also take offense to people who bought $80 Mausers and are selling them now for $1000 or more?

I mean, in a way, what you did is akin to someone stepping into a used car sale when the contract is about to be signed, and telling the salesperson "I'll give you $100 more for that car." Then the buyer now has to outbid you to again make the deal. In my opinion, I don't think you walked into the middle of an auction, but you treated it as such. If a difference of $110 meant the guy was getting swindled, then the guy was prepared to accept less in order to sell his wares. I don't fault you for trying to help someone who could have gotten more money for what he was selling, only questioning your objection to someone trying to turn a profit as part of their living.

 

[Cosmoline]

There are significantly MORE gun shows now than any point in our country's history.

Where are you getting that information from? Everything I've read and experienced in the past decade has been the opposite. The explosion of on-line options from gunbroker to various local swap and sell boards has made them mostly obsolete. Maybe things are different in Texas, but they aren't the place to go for deals around here. The guys behind the tables drive hard bargains and sometimes don't even seem to be interested in selling anything.

 

[dogtown tom]

Do ya think there might be a slight difference between Anchorage and Dallas that means more gun shows here?
Anchorage MSA is about 380,000
Dallas-Ft Worth MSA is about 6.4 million

More people, more gunshows.

 

[CapnMac]

Although, those 3-a-month shows in DFW, Houston and Austin-SA are at the cost of all the "little" places that used to have them.
Hasn't been a show in my county in three years.
Been that long since the last show in Brenham.
The Waco area seems to get one a month, but only by stretching the definitions of "Waco."

 

[NMGonzo]

There is no crying in Capitalism.

 

[rocinante]

I have been told by several dealers that Eastman forces them to sell at uniform prices to keep competition down.

The only decent deals I ever see at a gun show is from the guys wandering around selling their stuff face to face.

 

[hso]

Reading the above thread it occurred to me that perhaps in this instance the dealers there may have colluded with each other to not buy guns for what would be a reasonable wholesale price and therefor cheat people.

Do any of you think this thing happens sometimes?

No

If you were to spend any time on the dealer side of the tables you'd find out that there may be a lot of camaraderie but these guys are competitors for the same purchases and same sales.

When a guy comes into a show those guys with the tables have to purchase well below what an attendee walking around who'd just paid $10 to get in after spending $3 in gas to get to the show might give so they can pay their hotel, gas, truck/van wear and tear expenses. Add that a particular gun in a particular town may not be considered an easy move at a desirable profit, the dealer has to decide if it can be sold within a couple of shows later or if he's going to tie his money up for months.

Take the reasonable "price" of an item and knock at least 30% off to get into range that a guy with a table might be interested in paying. Sounds predatory? You don't have the expense or risk of setting up, operating, breaking down, traveling home, sorting/cleaning everything that's been handled by a hundred people with popcorn salt, jerky juice and soda glue on their mitts, then pack it all up and head out to spend a couple of nights in a cheap hotel after setting up...

 

[teumessian_fox]

With the internet, why would you bother with gun shows anymore?

 

[22-rimfire]

With the internet, why would you bother with gun shows anymore?

Whether you know it or not, not every dealer or individual gun owner wants to sell via listings on the internet. But it really hasn't changed much when you get down to it... in the old days, dealers who sold through Gun List and Shotgun News had circulars that they prepared and updated to be mailed out. It's easier now with communication being faster, but it still is pretty much the same.

What has changed are gun forums and accessible gun auction sites (GunBroker & Auction Arms) that individuals feel more comfortable selling through. In the old days, gun auctions were pretty much for big time collectors and big dealers. These are people that can shell out $40 or $50K in one day. Now regular folks attend them.

I have met lots of fine gun dealers at gunshows. I understand the game. I have played it on a limited scale. I don't feel particularly insulted when a gun dealer offers me $500-$600 for my shiny Colt Python or Colt Diamondback. If they offer more, it is because they feel they can sell it that day and make a few $100. That is how the game is played. The other side of the coin is having a table with collector guns displayed for sale creates interest even if they are a bit over priced for the local market. Sometimes the dealer really doesn't want to sell them at all; they are props of a sort. Dealers know how to move a gun when they are ready.

 

[langenc]

I have a motto also .

Buy LOW--sell HIGH

 

[simonm2211]

http://www.justice.gov/atr/public/guidelines/211578.htm

Price fixing (collusion) is a very serious offense. Punishment includes heavy fines and imprisonment for individuals. It seems like a big risk to get $200 for Mosin Nagant.