COLORADO: Further restrictions on CCW proposed! (Revised)

[230RN]

A heads up. If this's been posted before, I pray forgiveness.

http://www.thedenverdailynews.com/?page=details&id=4510




Monday, January 8 2007


DUIs, guns, energy top Dem agenda
By PETER MARCUS - January 7, 2007
As Colorado’s Democratic leadership prepares for the start of the 66th General Assembly Wednesday — looking forward to working with a Democratic governor — bills are already surfacing that might require people convicted of a DUI to install a Breathalyzer device in their car, and legislation that would toughen concealed weapons permit registration, as well as increase energy standards, and lower the school start age to 6-years-old.

Governor-elect Bill Ritter has promised to work with Republicans on bipartisan legislation after he is sworn into office tomorrow, as has House Speaker Andrew Romanoff, D-Denver, and Senate President Joan Fitz-Gerald, D-Coal Creek Canyon.

In fact, Romanoff said there is no reason why the Republicans shouldn’t be able to pass legislation of their own.

“If you have a good idea, you will be very successful,” he told the Denver Daily News Thursday. “Even if you’re in the minority party. We’re trying to shatter the illusion that some folks created, that one party is in control and that only one party gets to enact legislation.”

As for the Democrats agenda — it will focus on education, health and public safety, with an emphasis on renewable energy and the environment.

...SNIP...

Public Safety

...SNIP...

Other such public safety legislation said to be introduced, is a bill that would toughen the application process for concealed weapons permits. The legislation is expected to be introduced by Sen. John Morse, D-Colorado Springs.

“There are some states that grant concealed weapons permits via mail,” read the statement sent by the Senate majority leadership. “These states do not have our same high standards for issuing permits, nor provide an ability to prevent ineligible applicants from receiving a permit. This bill fixes that loophole.”...SNIP...
#33

 

[LAR-15]

High standards?

I bet they'd freak at Vermont's standards

 

[Justin]

Morse, John P.
District: 11
County: El Paso
Party: D
Cap: 303-866-6364
E-mail: [email protected]

 

[larry_minn]

I sent him what I consider a polite letter with a few questions.


Senator Morse:
I was just reading some new laws proposed in Colorado. First I must admit I live in Minnesota but my wife and her family hail from Colorad so I spend some time over there. I rather enjoy the state and going up in mountains (basicly everything out of Denver) In any case I read you may no longer allow folks from out of state to Carry a concealed method of self defense....
MIght I ask why? Have there been mass assults by folks who have spent the time and money to have their background checked, take training classes, and fingerprints/photos/etc? I always understood that as a group, folks who get a permit are among the most law abiding folk around.
For the MN permit we have to take a class, pass a background test as well as demonstrate safe operation of a firearm (and ability to not only hit a target but decide when not to shoot) Plus IF I recall correctly a 4 hr additional section for Colorado, Utah and a couple other states laws.
In closing I hope you reconsider not accepting other states permit holders as legal in your state. It has always bothered me that WI does not trust me with a firearm but last time I counted 20+ other states do.
Thank you for your time. Hope the snow has not been to heavy in your home area. I was NE of Denver over Christmas to New Yrs. Shoveled a lot of snow. Next time I may bring my skid loader.

xxxxxx xxxxxxx

 

[Soybomb]

So what problem is this actually fixing? Surely there is a demonstrated and not imagined problem....

 

[Justin]

Have dispatched an email to the "honorable" Mr. Morse in the hope that he'll clarify his proposed bill.

 

[Justin]

Have received a response:

Thank you for your e-mail. My bill will simply require that Colorado
residents have a Colorado CCW permit. Residents from out of state will
still have complete reciprocity. The only change is that you, as a Colorado
resident, will not be able to rely upon a Florida (or any other state)
permit here in Colorado. If you are a Colorado resident, please have a
Colorado permit, if you are a Florida resident here for business or
pleasure, your Florida permit is good the entire time you are in Colorado.
I hope that clarifies my proposition. I would appreciate it if you would
circulate this to whoever is circulating the erroneous information. Thank
you for your attention, and I am sincerely yours,

Senator-Elect John P. Morse

State Capitol Building
Room 332
Denver, CO 80203
(303) 866-6364
[email protected]

So, let me get this straight:

1) This means that if you move to Colorado from out-of-state and establish residence, you have the choice of either being disarmed, or being a criminal under the law until you jump through the hoops to get a Colorado CCW permit.

2) I note that he makes no mention of exempting those who received a carry permit in a state with equal or more stringent permit qualifications, such as New York or California.

3) This is a law that would likely apply to only a handful of Colorado residents, yet I am unaware of any incident where a Colorado resident with an out-of-state permit negligently shot someone as a result of the "inferior" permit requirements from another state.

4) In light of point number 3, I can only assume that this is meant to be a big giant aimed squarely at the Colorado gun culture. But then, perhaps I'm just a tad bit cynical.

 

[Soybomb]

The hypothetical example I've seen to justify that is that if a CO resident is not qualified for a CO permit but they do for another state (IE: disqualified for DUI under circumstances that colorado would not allow but FL would issue a permit under). I'd like to read a draft of his bill though.

If there have been no problems I would tend to think that perhaps colorado's standard is higher than it needs to be, but I guess lowering the requirements for a ccw won't go over well.

 

[Zundfolge]

Wait, is he a Fascist, or a commie....

tow-may-tow, tow-mah-tow



The problem I have with this bill is that its a solution in search of a problem.

Is there a rash of Colorado residents with out of state permits commiting crimes with concealed guns?

All this is is a waste of taxpayer time and money in an attempt to "solve" a non-problem and at the same time throttle us proles that DARE think we have a right to do anything.

“Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it, misdiagnosing it and then misapplying the wrong remedies.”
-Groucho Marx

 

[The-Fly]

I actually can explain the story on this one. I am a member of CSSA (colorado state shooting association ) and at the last crossroads show, our president Tony Fabian was there. I asked him what definite anti gun bills were coming for sure, and he said at this point there are two.

The sheriff's association is the big backer behind these two possible laws.

1. If you live in Colorado, you must have a Colorado ccw. State residents would be forbidden from carrying on an out of state permit like Utah or Florida. Visitors with out of state permits would still be fine. This is due to some idiot being denied for a CO permit and then getting a FL permit, going back to the CO sheriff and rubbing it in the sheriff's face.

2. The current database of ccw holders would be made permanent. Currently by law its set to expire in 2008.

Tony feels that Ritter will be cautious in making any big gun grabs (ala AWB bans), as gun grabbing is a good way to lose LOTS of future votes, and Ritter is hungry for a second term. Tony recommends to everyone to keep an eye on things, and wait a few weeks to see what else gets proposed in the State House.

 

[DouglasW]

There's nothing wrong with this type of change. It is totally standard in all the states with CCW and is basically an oversight / mistake if Colorado lets CO residents carry in CO with non-res permits from other states. TX honors non-res permits for non-residents but TX residents must get a TX permit! Same with most / all of them, and it's perfectly reasonable.

I beg to differ. Living in Denver, I take certain comfort in knowing that I also have a second permit from another state that allows me (for now) to carry in Colorado. That way, if Denver is ever successful in legally over-turning the shall-issue provision or in exercising their home-rule authority and negating existing CCW permits...I would still be good-to-go in the rest of free Colorado.

Just something to think about...

 

[romma]

I will state now, that if one State falls on the reciprocity and recognition status currently in place, then the media will latch on and other states will follow suit. The tide may very well be turning with all the "gun violence" going on. I hope and pray for Colorado gun rights groups fight this tooth and nail. It will affect other states as well in no time...

 

[Soybomb]

There's nothing wrong with this type of change. It is totally standard in all the states with CCW and is basically an oversight / mistake if Colorado lets CO residents carry in CO with non-res permits from other states. TX honors non-res permits for non-residents but TX residents must get a TX permit! Same with most / all of them, and it's perfectly reasonable.

I gotta' disagree with that. There is something quite wrong with making legislation that isn't necessary. It seems this "loop hole" actually hasn't caused any problems. If anything its a sign that the state requirements are stricter than necessary. I'd also like to point out the cost factor. If someone has a UT or FL permit for travel reasons, should it be necessary for them to fork out the extra $100 for the CO license too? This isn't the worst legislation to face but it is unnecessary and I would say unreasonable.

Are these people therefore expected to disarm until the paperwork for their Colorado permit goes through?

I believe other states that have such laws often allow a grace period. I think TN for example gives you lX days after moving to the state to get a TN license to carry while your out of state license is still valid.

 

[Uenoparker]

From my perspective as a Colorado CCW holder, the most damaging immediate impact of this change is that it disarms a previously vetted CCW holder who moves to the state. For example, Colorado requires that you first establish residency in the state -- usually as evidenced by a CO-issued driver's license -- prior to applying for a CCW; this takes time, often in the neighborhood of 14-30 days. Upon application for a CCW, the sheriff has up to 90 days to issue. So an out-of-state resident, even if he/she had a perfectly clean record and had passed more stringent checks in his previous state of residence before moving to CO, would not be permitted to carry concealed for something like 120 days after moving to the state. While quite a few other states have started with and maintained a similar stance related to validity of CCWs, I'm not aware of any others that have gone from more to less permissive on this. I'm also unaware of any criminal event that might serve as justification for such a change in Colorado.

 

[lcambre]

The rmgo sight had a link to the CO legislature pdf of SB34. The couple of bad things I noticed are:
As noted by others there is no provision for carry during the time between establishing CO residency and going through the in state training and getting the permit issued.

The other bad part is that this legislation also prohibits residents of other states from using permits from a state that they aren't a resident of. I see no reason that Colorado should deny people the means to self defense just because they happen to come from a one of the states that completely or based on the local politics denies otherwise qualified people a carry permit.

 

[CleverNickname]

TX honors non-res permits for non-residents but TX residents must get a TX permit!

This is not the case, TX residents can carry on an out-of state permit. Please cite the law if you disagree.

 

[Justin]

My response to Senator Morse's previous email:

The Honorable John P. Morse
El Paso County, District 11

Dear Sir,

Thank you so very much for your timely response.
Unfortunately, I found your response wanting, and had to dig up a copy of your proposed bill via the internet, which has delayed my ability to respond.

After reading a copy of the bill, I have some further questions:

1.) What is/are the compelling safety reasons for the passage of this bill? I would be most interested to know how many incidents of violent crime, or a misunderstanding leading to an unlawful use of a weapon have occurred prior to the introduction of your bill. If possible, please cite sources such as news stories and/or court documents.

2.) Am I to understand that if someone moves to Colorado and becomes a resident, that until they receive their Colorado Concealed Carry Permit that they are expected to remain unarmed in a location that they may be unfamiliar with?

3.) By my reading of the law, if an out-of-state resident does not possess a permit issued by his/her state of residence, s/he is in violation of the law. What, if any, provisions are you going to make in order to ensure that out-of-state visitors are aware of the state of Colorado's laws?

Looking forward to hearing from you soon.

Kindest Regards,
Justin

lcambre is correct, if you move to Colorado and become a resident, there is no provision covering you until you receive your permit.

As well as the fact that if you are, say, a resident of Indiana carrying on a Florida permit who is visiting Colorado, you are in violation of the law.

Link to the proposed legislation. (Goes to PDF.)

 

[Justin]

FWIW, here's a list of the CO State Senate Judiciary Committee Members:

Senators Brandon Shaffer, Chair, John Morse, Vice-chair, Bob Bacon, Betty Boyd, Shawn Mitchell, Scott Renfroe, Steve Ward

Taken from here:
Link goes to PDF

If any of you are represented by the above, I'd suggest giving them a phone call to let them know that you oppose this legislation.

 

[07Lway]

I wish that law makers would understand that there isn't a constant need for new legislation. This seems like a pretty useless law. Was there some sort of massive problem with Colorado residents carry CCW weapons from different states? I would think that if the government deems you "qualified" to carry a concealed weapon in one state, it should be good for any other state.

 

[Justin]

All of the following members are on the Judiciary Committee.

If you're a Colorado resident, call them and calmly and succinctly voice your displeasure over SENATE BILL 07-034. I've put in bold the ones most likely to be sympathetic to our cause.

Ask them to cite an incident involving someone with an out-of-state permit, and point out that there isn't a state in the union that issues carry permits to criminals.

Chair,
Shaffer, Brandon C.
District: 17
County: Boulder
Party: D
Occupation: Attorney
Cap: 303-866-5291
E-mail: [email protected]

Bob Bacon,
Senator
Dist. 14
Counties: Larimer
Pty. D
Occupation: Retired Teacher
Cap: 303-866-4841
E-mail: [email protected]

Betty Boyd,
Senator
Dist. 21
Counties: Jefferson
Pty. D
Occupation: Former Non Profit Manager & Advocate
Cap: 303-866-4857
E-mail: [email protected]

Shawn Mitchell,
Senator
Dist. 23
Counties: Adams, Broomfield, Weld
Pty. R
Occupation: Attorney
Cap: 303-866-4876
E-mail: [email protected]

Scott Renfroe,
Senator
Dist. 13
Counties: Weld
Pty. R
Occupation: Concrete Contractor
Cap: 303-866-4451
E-mail: [email protected]

Steve Ward
Senator
Dist. 26
Counties: Arapahoe, Jefferson
Pty. R
Occupation: Business Owner
Cap: 303-866-4846
E-mail: [email protected]

 

[Justin]

Here's a copy of the letter I sent to Senator Shawn Morris:

The Honorable Shawn Mitchell
Colorado State Senator

RE: SENATE BILL 07-034


Dear Senator Mitchell,

I am writing you to voice my opposition to Senate Bill 07-034 as introduced by your esteemed colleague from Fountain, John Morse.

This bill makes it unlawful for a Colorado resident to carry a concealed weapon with a permit that is issued from another state.

It would also prohibit out-of-state visitors from carrying a concealed weapon if their permit is not issued by the state in which they currently reside.

Upon first glance, this bill does appear to be reasonable and common sense. However, upon further reflection, it seems to me that it would needlessly complicate the legal conditions to be met in order to carry a defensive arm, and that those most likely to be turned into criminals by it will be those who are also unlikely to even be aware that such a law is on the books!

The way that I see it, this law would either criminalize or disarm any new resident of Colorado. I cannot imagine what it would be like to move to an unfamiliar city in a new state only to find out that one's carry permit is now completely invalid, and that, by law, you would not be able to protect yourself until issued a Colorado concealed carry permit, which can take as long as 3 months.

Additionally, the law would prohibit out-of-state visitors from carrying a concealed weapon in Colorado if their permit is not issued by their state of residence. How is a visitor from out-of-state to even know that this law is on the books? I see no provisions in Senator Morse's proposal for posting signs at the border of Colorado, and I have to wonder how a law that would criminalize otherwise law-abiding citizens from other states is in any way, shape, or form an example of just legislation or rational jurisprudence.

Perhaps this legislation would be a good idea if there had been an inordinate amount of unlawful violence committed by Colorado residents with out-of-state carry permits, but a Google search does not return even one report of such an incident transpiring. And with good reason- there isn't a state in the union that issues permits without first doing background criminal checks.

In summary, Senator Morse's proposal is a law in search of a problem. Unfortunately it would add needless complication to an already byzantine system of permitting and reciprocity between states. I implore you to please consider the fact that this law will likely turn many good and decent citizens into criminals without their being aware of it. Because of this, please oppose Senate Bill 07-034.

Sincerely Yours,

 

[DouglasW]

Thanks for posting your letter Justin. Two questions:

1. May we have your permission to copy sections of it for our own letters?
2. What effect do you think our letters will have if we are not in Senator Morris' (or any of the co-sponsors') districts? e.g. I'm in Denver County...and I don't see anyone from Denver on the Judiciary Committee.

Thanks!

 

[Justin]

Douglas (and anyone else)-


Yes, please feel free to take my letter as a template to be modified in our effort to make sure this doesn't pass out of committee.

Even if you aren't a constituent in one of their locations, it can't hurt to send a message letting them know that you oppose the bill and that you're keeping an eye on it. I'm not in either Renfroe or Mitchell's district, but if they see that people outside of their district are paying attention to this, it might give them reason to pay attention.

FWIW, I did some more reading, and evidently Scott Renfroe is pro-gun, so he would probably be a good person to contact.

I don't know if it would be worth it to contact your Senator if s/he isn't a member of the Judiciary Committee.

 

[JassenB]

email to Sen. Morse

Here's what I just sent him, FWIW. I happen to be "one of them" - Colorado resident with an out of state permit, and for good reason. At the time, I was freakin' broke and the Utah permit was 1/3 the price.



--
Mr. Morse:

The message below was forwarded to me by a colleague,
and your proposition causes me grave concern. I hope
that you will take the time to reflect on what I have
written.

First of all, it is a travesty in this country that
any person has to engage in any sort of "lobbying" in
order to defend our rights as granted by the United
States Constitution. And I'm not just referring to the
second amendment, but to the Bill of Rights as a whole.

Second, I feel that your proposition is a solution in
search of a problem. I can find no record of an
instance in the state of Colorado in which a resident
of the state with an out of state permit has committed
a crime with a concealed weapon. As a matter of fact,
concealed carry permit holders are the cream of the
crop of law abiding citizens, and have to be in order
to get their permit in the first place.

Third, as a Colorado resident with an out of state
permit myself, I can tell you straight up that your
proposition would create an unfair burden on
individuals with lesser financial means. I
intentionally chose to obtain an out of state permit
simply for the fact that it cost me 1/3 the amount
that it would have cost to acquire a Colorado CCW
permit. I shouldn't have to travel in fear of my life
at night because I'm left without the most effective
way of defending myself if attacked just because I
can't afford the higher fees.

Fourth, your proposition undermines years of work by
the attorney generals of dozens of states that have
worked together to create the network of
state-to-state reciprocity that we currently have.
Your proposition would not impact visitors to the
state, but would impact those individuals that move
here and then must choose between abiding by the law
and waiting for a Colorado permit versus continuing to
be able to defend their own lives if they are attacked
but breaking the law to do so. In addition, such a
change to the Colorado CCW laws could potentially be
viewed by the attorney generals of other states as a
sign of lack of trust between the states, which could
impact the reciprocity of Colorado permits in other
states, regardless of whether or not Colorado
continues to honor the permits of those other states
as visitors.

Fifth, due the sharing of criminal databases across
the country, including the resources of the FBI, the
background check for a CCW is more or less the same
everywhere in the country. Requiring Colorado
residents to obtain Colorado permits only wouldn't
actually *DO* anything to enhance public safety. I
find it disdainful when government wastes time,
effort, and money on something that will have zero
results.

As a former law enforcement officer, you know first
hand that in the vast majority of violent attacks, the
crime has already been committed and the perpetrator
has already fled the scene before police arrive. The
police cannot be everywhere all the time - the
resources simply do not exist for that. As such,
citizens must retain the lawful ability to defend
themselves when confronted with a violent individual
bent on causing them death or grave bodily harm.
Therefore, any effort to limit the ability of a
citizen to lawfully defend themselves against modern
criminal threats is an affront against the inherent
right to self-defense.

While your proposition would actually impact only a
small number of individuals in the state, I happen to
be one of them. For the reasons outlined above, I
kindly ask that you not attempt to make such a
legislative change. As the saying goes, there's no
need to fix what ain't broken.

I thank you for taking the time to read this message.

Sincerely,

Jassen L. Bowman
Fort Collins

 

[Justin]

Have received a response from John Morse:

Thank you for taking the time to commit your thoughts to an e-mail. We are
currently in session, so between now and May 9, 2007, I will have little
time to answer e-mails. I do prioritize them and get back to them when I
can. Thank you again for taking the time to let me know what you think.

Senator John P. Morse

State Capitol Building
Room 332
Denver, CO 80203
(303) 866-6364
[email protected]

I'll just let John's note speak for him.