COLORADO: Further restrictions on CCW proposed!

[MechAg94]

It does seem strange that you would use another state's laws to bypass your state's law. I can see where that would be a reasonable restriction, but it should be incumbent upon state lawmakers that concealed carry not be burdened with silly restrictions. I don't think Texas will deny a permit based on past DUI, but if you DUI while carry with a permit, you are in for a felony conviction I think. I have a squeaky clean record so I am not sure of what will deny a CHL.

 

[Justin]

So, is it really worth throwing someone in prison because they choose to use a legally-issued permit from another state?

Again, I point out that people move to Colorado every single day. Are these people therefore expected to disarm until the paperwork for their Colorado permit goes through?

 

[romma]

I will state now, that if one State falls on the reciprocity and recognition status currently in place, then the media will latch on and other states will follow suit. The tide may very well be turning with all the "gun violence" going on. I hope and pray for Colorado gun rights groups fight this tooth and nail. It will affect other states as well in no time...

 

[Soybomb]

There's nothing wrong with this type of change. It is totally standard in all the states with CCW and is basically an oversight / mistake if Colorado lets CO residents carry in CO with non-res permits from other states. TX honors non-res permits for non-residents but TX residents must get a TX permit! Same with most / all of them, and it's perfectly reasonable.

I gotta' disagree with that. There is something quite wrong with making legislation that isn't necessary. It seems this "loop hole" actually hasn't caused any problems. If anything its a sign that the state requirements are stricter than necessary. I'd also like to point out the cost factor. If someone has a UT or FL permit for travel reasons, should it be necessary for them to fork out the extra $100 for the CO license too? This isn't the worst legislation to face but it is unnecessary and I would say unreasonable.

Are these people therefore expected to disarm until the paperwork for their Colorado permit goes through?

I believe other states that have such laws often allow a grace period. I think TN for example gives you lX days after moving to the state to get a TN license to carry while your out of state license is still valid.

 

[Uenoparker]

From my perspective as a Colorado CCW holder, the most damaging immediate impact of this change is that it disarms a previously vetted CCW holder who moves to the state. For example, Colorado requires that you first establish residency in the state -- usually as evidenced by a CO-issued driver's license -- prior to applying for a CCW; this takes time, often in the neighborhood of 14-30 days. Upon application for a CCW, the sheriff has up to 90 days to issue. So an out-of-state resident, even if he/she had a perfectly clean record and had passed more stringent checks in his previous state of residence before moving to CO, would not be permitted to carry concealed for something like 120 days after moving to the state. While quite a few other states have started with and maintained a similar stance related to validity of CCWs, I'm not aware of any others that have gone from more to less permissive on this. I'm also unaware of any criminal event that might serve as justification for such a change in Colorado.

 

[lcambre]

The rmgo sight had a link to the CO legislature pdf of SB34. The couple of bad things I noticed are:
As noted by others there is no provision for carry during the time between establishing CO residency and going through the in state training and getting the permit issued.

The other bad part is that this legislation also prohibits residents of other states from using permits from a state that they aren't a resident of. I see no reason that Colorado should deny people the means to self defense just because they happen to come from a one of the states that completely or based on the local politics denies otherwise qualified people a carry permit.

 

[CleverNickname]

TX honors non-res permits for non-residents but TX residents must get a TX permit!

This is not the case, TX residents can carry on an out-of state permit. Please cite the law if you disagree.

 

[Justin]

My response to Senator Morse's previous email:

The Honorable John P. Morse
El Paso County, District 11

Dear Sir,

Thank you so very much for your timely response.
Unfortunately, I found your response wanting, and had to dig up a copy of your proposed bill via the internet, which has delayed my ability to respond.

After reading a copy of the bill, I have some further questions:

1.) What is/are the compelling safety reasons for the passage of this bill? I would be most interested to know how many incidents of violent crime, or a misunderstanding leading to an unlawful use of a weapon have occurred prior to the introduction of your bill. If possible, please cite sources such as news stories and/or court documents.

2.) Am I to understand that if someone moves to Colorado and becomes a resident, that until they receive their Colorado Concealed Carry Permit that they are expected to remain unarmed in a location that they may be unfamiliar with?

3.) By my reading of the law, if an out-of-state resident does not possess a permit issued by his/her state of residence, s/he is in violation of the law. What, if any, provisions are you going to make in order to ensure that out-of-state visitors are aware of the state of Colorado's laws?

Looking forward to hearing from you soon.

Kindest Regards,
Justin

lcambre is correct, if you move to Colorado and become a resident, there is no provision covering you until you receive your permit.

As well as the fact that if you are, say, a resident of Indiana carrying on a Florida permit who is visiting Colorado, you are in violation of the law.

Link to the proposed legislation. (Goes to PDF.)

 

[Justin]

FWIW, here's a list of the CO State Senate Judiciary Committee Members:

Senators Brandon Shaffer, Chair, John Morse, Vice-chair, Bob Bacon, Betty Boyd, Shawn Mitchell, Scott Renfroe, Steve Ward

Taken from here:
Link goes to PDF

If any of you are represented by the above, I'd suggest giving them a phone call to let them know that you oppose this legislation.

 

[07Lway]

I wish that law makers would understand that there isn't a constant need for new legislation. This seems like a pretty useless law. Was there some sort of massive problem with Colorado residents carry CCW weapons from different states? I would think that if the government deems you "qualified" to carry a concealed weapon in one state, it should be good for any other state.

 

[Justin]

All of the following members are on the Judiciary Committee.

If you're a Colorado resident, call them and calmly and succinctly voice your displeasure over SENATE BILL 07-034. I've put in bold the ones most likely to be sympathetic to our cause.

Ask them to cite an incident involving someone with an out-of-state permit, and point out that there isn't a state in the union that issues carry permits to criminals.

Chair,
Shaffer, Brandon C.
District: 17
County: Boulder
Party: D
Occupation: Attorney
Cap: 303-866-5291
E-mail: [email protected]

Bob Bacon,
Senator
Dist. 14
Counties: Larimer
Pty. D
Occupation: Retired Teacher
Cap: 303-866-4841
E-mail: [email protected]

Betty Boyd,
Senator
Dist. 21
Counties: Jefferson
Pty. D
Occupation: Former Non Profit Manager & Advocate
Cap: 303-866-4857
E-mail: [email protected]

Shawn Mitchell,
Senator
Dist. 23
Counties: Adams, Broomfield, Weld
Pty. R
Occupation: Attorney
Cap: 303-866-4876
E-mail: [email protected]

Scott Renfroe,
Senator
Dist. 13
Counties: Weld
Pty. R
Occupation: Concrete Contractor
Cap: 303-866-4451
E-mail: [email protected]

Steve Ward
Senator
Dist. 26
Counties: Arapahoe, Jefferson
Pty. R
Occupation: Business Owner
Cap: 303-866-4846
E-mail: [email protected]

 

[Justin]

Here's a copy of the letter I sent to Senator Shawn Morris:

The Honorable Shawn Mitchell
Colorado State Senator

RE: SENATE BILL 07-034


Dear Senator Mitchell,

I am writing you to voice my opposition to Senate Bill 07-034 as introduced by your esteemed colleague from Fountain, John Morse.

This bill makes it unlawful for a Colorado resident to carry a concealed weapon with a permit that is issued from another state.

It would also prohibit out-of-state visitors from carrying a concealed weapon if their permit is not issued by the state in which they currently reside.

Upon first glance, this bill does appear to be reasonable and common sense. However, upon further reflection, it seems to me that it would needlessly complicate the legal conditions to be met in order to carry a defensive arm, and that those most likely to be turned into criminals by it will be those who are also unlikely to even be aware that such a law is on the books!

The way that I see it, this law would either criminalize or disarm any new resident of Colorado. I cannot imagine what it would be like to move to an unfamiliar city in a new state only to find out that one's carry permit is now completely invalid, and that, by law, you would not be able to protect yourself until issued a Colorado concealed carry permit, which can take as long as 3 months.

Additionally, the law would prohibit out-of-state visitors from carrying a concealed weapon in Colorado if their permit is not issued by their state of residence. How is a visitor from out-of-state to even know that this law is on the books? I see no provisions in Senator Morse's proposal for posting signs at the border of Colorado, and I have to wonder how a law that would criminalize otherwise law-abiding citizens from other states is in any way, shape, or form an example of just legislation or rational jurisprudence.

Perhaps this legislation would be a good idea if there had been an inordinate amount of unlawful violence committed by Colorado residents with out-of-state carry permits, but a Google search does not return even one report of such an incident transpiring. And with good reason- there isn't a state in the union that issues permits without first doing background criminal checks.

In summary, Senator Morse's proposal is a law in search of a problem. Unfortunately it would add needless complication to an already byzantine system of permitting and reciprocity between states. I implore you to please consider the fact that this law will likely turn many good and decent citizens into criminals without their being aware of it. Because of this, please oppose Senate Bill 07-034.

Sincerely Yours,

 

[DouglasW]

Thanks for posting your letter Justin. Two questions:

1. May we have your permission to copy sections of it for our own letters?
2. What effect do you think our letters will have if we are not in Senator Morris' (or any of the co-sponsors') districts? e.g. I'm in Denver County...and I don't see anyone from Denver on the Judiciary Committee.

Thanks!

 

[Justin]

Douglas (and anyone else)-


Yes, please feel free to take my letter as a template to be modified in our effort to make sure this doesn't pass out of committee.

Even if you aren't a constituent in one of their locations, it can't hurt to send a message letting them know that you oppose the bill and that you're keeping an eye on it. I'm not in either Renfroe or Mitchell's district, but if they see that people outside of their district are paying attention to this, it might give them reason to pay attention.

FWIW, I did some more reading, and evidently Scott Renfroe is pro-gun, so he would probably be a good person to contact.

I don't know if it would be worth it to contact your Senator if s/he isn't a member of the Judiciary Committee.

 

[JassenB]

email to Sen. Morse

Here's what I just sent him, FWIW. I happen to be "one of them" - Colorado resident with an out of state permit, and for good reason. At the time, I was freakin' broke and the Utah permit was 1/3 the price.



--
Mr. Morse:

The message below was forwarded to me by a colleague,
and your proposition causes me grave concern. I hope
that you will take the time to reflect on what I have
written.

First of all, it is a travesty in this country that
any person has to engage in any sort of "lobbying" in
order to defend our rights as granted by the United
States Constitution. And I'm not just referring to the
second amendment, but to the Bill of Rights as a whole.

Second, I feel that your proposition is a solution in
search of a problem. I can find no record of an
instance in the state of Colorado in which a resident
of the state with an out of state permit has committed
a crime with a concealed weapon. As a matter of fact,
concealed carry permit holders are the cream of the
crop of law abiding citizens, and have to be in order
to get their permit in the first place.

Third, as a Colorado resident with an out of state
permit myself, I can tell you straight up that your
proposition would create an unfair burden on
individuals with lesser financial means. I
intentionally chose to obtain an out of state permit
simply for the fact that it cost me 1/3 the amount
that it would have cost to acquire a Colorado CCW
permit. I shouldn't have to travel in fear of my life
at night because I'm left without the most effective
way of defending myself if attacked just because I
can't afford the higher fees.

Fourth, your proposition undermines years of work by
the attorney generals of dozens of states that have
worked together to create the network of
state-to-state reciprocity that we currently have.
Your proposition would not impact visitors to the
state, but would impact those individuals that move
here and then must choose between abiding by the law
and waiting for a Colorado permit versus continuing to
be able to defend their own lives if they are attacked
but breaking the law to do so. In addition, such a
change to the Colorado CCW laws could potentially be
viewed by the attorney generals of other states as a
sign of lack of trust between the states, which could
impact the reciprocity of Colorado permits in other
states, regardless of whether or not Colorado
continues to honor the permits of those other states
as visitors.

Fifth, due the sharing of criminal databases across
the country, including the resources of the FBI, the
background check for a CCW is more or less the same
everywhere in the country. Requiring Colorado
residents to obtain Colorado permits only wouldn't
actually *DO* anything to enhance public safety. I
find it disdainful when government wastes time,
effort, and money on something that will have zero
results.

As a former law enforcement officer, you know first
hand that in the vast majority of violent attacks, the
crime has already been committed and the perpetrator
has already fled the scene before police arrive. The
police cannot be everywhere all the time - the
resources simply do not exist for that. As such,
citizens must retain the lawful ability to defend
themselves when confronted with a violent individual
bent on causing them death or grave bodily harm.
Therefore, any effort to limit the ability of a
citizen to lawfully defend themselves against modern
criminal threats is an affront against the inherent
right to self-defense.

While your proposition would actually impact only a
small number of individuals in the state, I happen to
be one of them. For the reasons outlined above, I
kindly ask that you not attempt to make such a
legislative change. As the saying goes, there's no
need to fix what ain't broken.

I thank you for taking the time to read this message.

Sincerely,

Jassen L. Bowman
Fort Collins

 

[Stretchman]

You know, Columbine might never have happened if the rest of the students could have packed more than just their lunch.

Stretch
Quit cigs 2W 12h 22m ago. So far saved $87.09, 580 cigs not smoked and counting ...

 

[Justin]

Have received a response from John Morse:

Thank you for taking the time to commit your thoughts to an e-mail. We are
currently in session, so between now and May 9, 2007, I will have little
time to answer e-mails. I do prioritize them and get back to them when I
can. Thank you again for taking the time to let me know what you think.

Senator John P. Morse

State Capitol Building
Room 332
Denver, CO 80203
(303) 866-6364
[email protected]

I'll just let John's note speak for him.

 

[Zak Smith]

I got the same thing.

 

[MachIVshooter]

I hope and pray for Colorado gun rights groups fight this tooth and nail

Dudley Brown (Ex. Dir., RMGO) will. I am sending him money, and any other Colorado residents who value their rights should too.

Ritter is scary, to put it mildly. I am still trying to figure out how this happened in the first place. Throw out a loyal, multi-term Representative in favor of an underhanded district ATTORNEY who has often been derelict to his dtuies while lobbying for (insert ridiculous cause here).

Besides, I thought everyone hated lawyers

We've got a long and difficult road ahead if were to keep this state the way it always has been. Ritter and company would love to make it a mini-California.

 

[joe4702]

Don't know the situation in CO, but unfortunately it looks like it's politics are moving left, perhaps due to the influx of fleeing Californians. This law could could be a prelude to futher restrictions. Say this law passes, then over the years more liberals get elected and they start cranking up the CCW fees and training requirements, making it very expensive and time consuming to get/renew your permit. At that point, not being able to rely on another state permit would mean having to pay up or give up CCW altogether (likely their intended plan). Hopefully that will never happen, but... I guess if they ever have the votes to do that, they could also ban use of other state permits at the same time, but it would be more obvious what their intent was (reducing number of CCW holders in CO).