Colorado police officer WILL NOT face charges for mistakenly shooting dead a good Samaritan who....

[Robert]

Oh wow THE COPS GET AWAY WITH IT AGAIN.

Got away with it?! This has to be one of the most ignorant statements I've read on here in a while. He didn't get away with anything. He has to live with the fact he killed someone for the rest of his life, and it was a good guy at that. Thankfully your opinion nor that of the media count for anything in this matter.

A full investigation was conducted and the officer was found to have acted appropriately base on the facts available to him at the time. Graham v Connor is the US Supreme Court case that sets the standard for use of force. You can read it here:
https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/490/386/
Essentially it states, an officer will not be judged in 20/20 hindsight, but from an on scene perspective using the fact available to the officer at the time of the use of force. It set the objective reasonableness standard, would a similarly trained and experienced officer reach the same or similar conclusion based on the fact available at the time.

You are dispatched to a shots fired call, people are dead or dieing, and when you arrive on scene you see a guy holding a rifle. Stopping to give commands could very well mean he shoots you, so you shoot him. Good shoot from a legal stand point. Finding out after that he was not the bad guy and was indeed the guy who stopped the bad guy...I cannot imagine what he has to live with now.

But to say he got away with it is simply wrong and ignorant of case law and the facts of this case.

 

[Kleanbore]

Very well put, Robert. Very well indeed.

 

[armydog]

It seems to me that we are seeing more and more stories where cops show up and shoot first, ask questions afterward. Might not be quite that bad, but not far off. Active shooter situations is a big thing these days. If dispatch tells them there is an active shooter there or even someone with a gun, you should expect cops to show up expecting a fight. Anyone who carries a gun for self defense should keep that in mind.

Best advice in a similar situation I can come up with is to stand off to the side with your gun holstered and not visible. Let the cops come in and secure the scene before trying to talk to them. If you can't stand off to the side, re-holster and keep your hands visible. If you are prepared for the worst, something less than that will be less of a burden.

Growing up in NYC, it was frequent that off duty cops would be shot up and a lot of times killed by responding uniforms to crime scenes. They would be in a store and an armed robber would come in and try to rob the place and then get in a shoot out. And when the uniforms come, they come in ready to do battle unless told otherwise. This would even happen with plainclothes cops. It is nothing new. They even came out with these dog tag like chains, but with thicker beads for their badges and they had to take it out whenever something would go down. So it's not only not new, it's also cops getting killed like this. But with the way media is now, you definitely hear a lot more of it.

 

[armydog]

The problem I have is that, so close to always as makes no difference, that when a police officer shoots someone dead, the shooting is ruled justified and proper. Apparently police officers are pretty much perfect in that respect. I am sorry, but the older I get, the more my belief in the possibility of human perfection fades away.

How long have you been holding out with this belief that there is some human perfection out there? lol

And as far as police being perfect, in regard to I guess what you're saying is justifiable homicide, I'd hardly think that they throw a party every time the grand jury doesn't indict.

Hopefully some people can learn from this situation.

 

[Deanimator]

And as far as police being perfect, in regard to I guess what you're saying is justifiable homicide, I'd hardly think that they throw a party every time the grand jury doesn't indict.

The problem is that there are worse incidents where they aren't held accountable.

In the shootings/rammings of Emma Hernandez, Margie Carranza and David Perdue, not only did none of them pick up a gun, the only guns present were those of the police shooting at the victims, who had done literally NOTHING to warrant ANY force against themselves, much less deadly force.

NONE of those involved were prosecuted, and absent proof to the contrary, there's no reason to believe that any of them were disciplined or terminated.

None of the victims were killed, but that was PURELY by chance. All of them were injured by wild fusillades of gunfire or vehicle ramming. After the fact, they were all treated like garbage when none of the three had committed a single crime nor threatened anyone.

In the past, I was subject to a long series of death threats by neo-Nazis, including posting of supposed directions to my home. If I'd panicked and tried to kill three innocent people engaged in lawful activities, I'd still be in prison.

 

[Monac]

How long have you been holding out with this belief that there is some human perfection out there? lol

And as far as police being perfect, in regard to I guess what you're saying is justifiable homicide, I'd hardly think that they throw a party every time the grand jury doesn't indict.

Hopefully some people can learn from this situation.

What I am saying is that the percentage of times a police shooting even goes to a grand jury seems to be trivial. I am quite ready to learn if I am wrong about that. But if I am right, that seems to mean that all but a trivial number of lethal police shootings are viewed as being "good" by police and the prosecutors. That's a very high standard of performance, don't you think?

 

[Casefull]

Some cops are squirrely and trigger happy. Rather than assessing the situation, they just start shooting, if they see a weapon. It’s disgusting that they sometimes shoot their own non uniformed officers. Being afraid and poorly trained makes you trigger-happy. I support the majority of police but there are some that should not be allowed to carry guns.

 

[armydog]

What I am saying is that the percentage of times a police shooting even goes to a grand jury seems to be trivial. I am quite ready to learn if I am wrong about that. But if I am right, that seems to mean that all but a trivial number of lethal police shootings are viewed as being "good" by police and the prosecutors. That's a very high standard of performance, don't you think?

None of the victims were killed, but that was PURELY by chance. All of them were injured by wild fusillades of gunfire or vehicle ramming. After the fact, they were all treated like garbage when none of the three had committed a single crime nor threatened anyone.

I'm not excusing the actions of all police. I never said life was fair. There is a balance that reasonable politicians and leaders used to try and maintain. You guys know cops are getting thrown in prison all the time right? Most justifiably so, but I can think of many that are in prison right now because of politics.

 

[Robert]

If we are not going to stick to the case at hand, then there is no reason to leave this open.

 

[Waveski]

What I am saying is that the percentage of times a police shooting even goes to a grand jury seems to be trivial.

Have you considered the possibility that the vast majority of LEOs are conscientious professionals who do the right thing in critical situations? Just like the officer who was involved in the OP case? That would explain the point you stated above , wouldn't it?

Why would a justified shooting have to be wrung out by a grand jury?

Some cops are squirrely and trigger happy.

It is the squirrely trigger happy bad guys who are setting the stage for a shoot-out.
You want to be that cop making split second life changing decisions while the bullets are flying?

 

[Deanimator]

You want to be that cop making split second life changing decisions while the bullets are flying?

Do you want to be those paper delivery women and the surfer when hundreds of rounds are flying your way or your vehicle is being rammed THEN you're being shot at?

This isn't Egypt. We don't draft police. Becoming a cop is a choice. I'm pretty sure that Hernandez, Carranza and Perdue didn't volunteer to be shot, rammed, and have their vehicles turned into colanders.

If I'd shot a Jehovah's witness who knocked on my door because he was wearing a tan shirt and leather jacket and I thought he was the lone Nazi with enough guts to follow his own directions to my house, I'd still be in prison.

 

[Waveski]

If I'd shot a Jehovah's witness who knocked on my door because he was wearing a tan shirt and leather jacket and I thought he was the lone Nazi with enough guts to follow his own directions to my house, I'd still be in prison.

I have no idea what you are talking about , but I am pretty sure it is not relevant to this thread.

 

[Kleanbore]

When this shooting occurred, the facts were made public almost immediately, and there was considerable discussion here and in other circles. It was clear to most people that the decedent had put himself in great danger by holding a rifle when officers arrived at the shooing scene. Most people understand why and would know to avoid doing that.

I do not recall any serious suggestions that the officer's actions were improper.

 

[Deanimator]

I have no idea what you are talking about , but I am pretty sure it is not relevant to this thread.

Then maybe you should read the posts.

The cops tried to kill the women and the surfer because there was a "threat" and they were "scared".

I had a threat and had a right to be scared. NOBODY would have made any excuses for me if instead of a National Alliance member coming to kill me, I'd mistakenly aired out somebody distributing the Watch Tower. Regardless of how "scared" I was, if I'd recklessly fired into a couple of vehicles (never mind ramming one) and injured three totally innocent people, I'd still be in state prison.

 

[Robert]

Then maybe you should read the posts.

The cops tried to kill the women and the surfer because there was a "threat" and they were "scared".

I had a threat and had a right to be scared. NOBODY would have made any excuses for me if instead of a National Alliance member coming to kill me, I'd mistakenly aired out somebody distributing the Watch Tower. Regardless of how "scared" I was, if I'd recklessly fired into a couple of vehicles (never mind ramming one) and injured three totally innocent people, I'd still be in state prison.

All of which has nothing to do with the topic of this thread. Why is that so hard to understand?

 

[Monac]

Have you considered the possibility that the vast majority of LEOs are conscientious professionals who do the right thing in critical situations? Just like the officer who was involved in the OP case? That would explain the point you stated above , wouldn't it?

Why would a justified shooting have to be wrung out by a grand jury?

Yes, I have. That is why I said that in the eyes of the legal authorities, police officers seem to be pretty much perfect when it comes to using their guns. I then said that at my age, near perfection in any sizeable group of people surprises me. But you think they really are just that good. I am not going to try and change your mind, but you have not changed mine either. I think they are just people, with all that that implies with regard to fallibility.

Also, you don't seem to understand what a grand jury is for. The grand jury does NOT decide if the shooting was justified. The grand jury decides if there is cause for a trial to decide whether the shooting is justified. When it comes to police use of lethal force, the legal authorities apparently prefer that neither question be answered by a jury. That seems problematic to me.

 

[Monac]

I'm not excusing the actions of all police. I never said life was fair. There is a balance that reasonable politicians and leaders used to try and maintain. You guys know cops are getting thrown in prison all the time right? Most justifiably so, but I can think of many that are in prison right now because of politics.

I do not know any such thing, and I particularly do not know that "many" cops are in prison now because of their politics. That sounds like crazy talk. How do you propose to back it up?

I also think this thread is in the wrong forum, because virually none of the posts are about firearms. It should be moved somewhere else. I only looked at it because it was in a gun discussion forum

 

[armydog]

I do not know any such thing, and I particularly do not know that "many" cops are in prison now because of their politics. That sounds like crazy talk. How do you propose to back it up?

I also think this thread is in the wrong forum, because virually none of the posts are about firearms. It should be moved somewhere else. I only looked at it because it was in a gun discussion forum

Not because of their politics... politics period. You don't seem all there and I'm not going to go on about this in this thread.

 

[Monac]

Not because of their politics... politics period. You don't seem all there and I'm not going to go on about this in this thread.

Thank you for this reply.

 

[Robert]

This is why we can't have nice things. And that this really wasn't on topic to begin with and I should have closed it three pages ago, we are done here.