Colorado Sheriff enters CCW holders into CRIMINAL Database...

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Justin Moore

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just got this in my email from Rocky Mountain Gun Owners:

At Least One Colorado Sheriff Entering Concealed Carry Permit Holders into
Criminal Database

We've been working on an issue that developed, of all places, in a county that has
more per capita permits than any county in Colorado.

Just a few weeks ago RMGO Northern Colorado Coordinator Ray Hickman was
contacted by Dell Bean, a former law enforcement officer.

Bean was returning home from vacation when a State Trooper pulled him over for no
front license plate. When the Trooper accessed his in-car computer database, Bean
came up as a concealed weapons permit holder in CCIC, the Colorado Crime
Information Center database.

You can read more about CCIC at:

http://cbi.state.co.us/ccic/default.asp

You can also read a Fort Collins Coloradoan article at:

http://www.coloradoan.com/news/stories/20030118/news/801521.html

To summarize, the CCIC database is used as an "index of wanted and missing
persons and property, to identify: people and property involved in crime; members of
criminal gangs; stolen property; criminal suspects; criminal methods of operation;
reported crime; reported arrests; and to share crime bulletins about major crimes in
other states from which suspects may flee to Colorado."

In othe words, permit holders -- who have already proven themselves law-abiding
citizens -- are lumped in with rapists, murderers, burglars and thugs.

When Hickman was confronted with the information by Bean, RMGO staff began an
investigation of this practice.

We have asked a legislator to request from CBI -- which administers the CCIC
database -- a list of Sheriffs who are entering permit holders into the database as
well as CBI's statutory authority for doing so. To date, the legislator has had no
response.

Larimer County Republican Sheriff Jim Alderden began the practice of entering these
names in CCIC late last year, ostensibly following the lead of former Boulder County
Sheriff George Epp, a Democrat.

Alderden has issued more than 2,000 concealed weapons permits, including a brief
period when he issued them for free in response to the 9/11 attacks.

But Alderden clearly has a blind spot. He's obviously more concerned with how he is
seen by law enforcement agencies, who are notoriously anti-gun, than his
constituents.

Alderden was elected almost entirely on the concealed carry issue when he
challenged Republican Sheriff Richard Shockley in a GOP primary. Clearly, it was
the gun issue that trounced Shockley.

While there are many law enforcement officers who are supporters of the
constitution, they are becoming the exception rather than the rule. The push of law
enforcment associations to create stricter gun laws has pushed the average law
enforcement officer far to the left of their natural allies, the law-abiding gun owners.

RMGO Executive Director confronted a Democrat sheriff about the practice of
entering permit holders into CCIC, and the sheriff quickly denied any intention of
doing so.

The sheriff's reason for not entering permit holders into CCIC? When the idea was
floated at a Sheriff's association meeting, the Democrat sheriff quizzed other law
enforcement personnel about what they would do if they pulled someone over who
was flagged as a permit holder. The Democrat sheriff said he was appalled by the
comments of some officers he asked, and didn't want to subject his permit holders to
such a humiliating and possibly dangerous situation.

Alderden claims the practice is for simple officer safety, so an officer knows
someone is likely armed when they are stopped.

Why would an officer be concerned about a citizen who has taken the time and
expense to get that permit in the first place? The unfortunate answer is that law
enforcement deals with, largely, the dregs of society on day-in day-out basis. This
leads them to treat EVERYONE as a "perp" or perpetrator. "Everyone's a perp" is an
extremely common phrase in law enforcement circles.

While the issue of being flagged in a database as a "dangerous person" is
concerning, even more troubling is the potential of law enforcement to link that
information with other databases.

Imagine Denver Police Department linking CCIC information to license plates.
Citizens should shudder at the chilling effect on our rights this system would have.

But ironically, it isn't coming from Denver. The threat is coming from a sheriff who
has been arguably the most pro-gun Sheriff in Colorado.

Just this fall, Alderden issued a dozen permits to Denver County residents. He came
short of announcing that he would issue to any law-abiding Denver resident, likely
because of the heat he would have taken from the County Sheriffs of Colorado
(CSOC), which is Colorado's mafia for Sheriffs.

For years CSOC has been opposed to concealed carry permits. Now that the tide
has shifted against them, and almost every sheriff is issuing permits, CSOC has tried
to find ways to limit that authority. CSOC, which is now run by George Epp and
represented in the legislature by Peg Ackerman, is an integral part of gun control
efforts in Colorado.

How does this CCIC issue effect concealed carry reform in the legislature?

For years, RMGO has warned legislators and gun owners alike that any concealed
carry reform bill had to have a prohibition on statewide databases. We've run
amendments to the NRA's concealed carry bills to remove the database they
establish in their legislation.

Senate Bill 24, sponsored by Sen. Ken Chlouber (R-Leadville) and Al White (R- Winter Park) and drafted by the NRA, not only encourages Sheriffs to share permit
holder information but fails to prohibit using CCIC as a registry of "dangerous
persons."

Senate Bill 63 has a specific prohibition against any such database. In SB63,
Sheriffs are only allowed to determine validity of a permit with their county maintained
list of permit holders.

Some will claim a statewide database is needed to check validity. But both
concealed carry bills offered this session (and most in the last 8 years of CCW
debate) have been permits issued by a sheriffs department. That means a simple
phonecall to the issuing sheriff's department will authenticate the permit.

Anti-gunners want a statewide database, because it is the kind of information that is
otherwise difficult to acquire. That's why Sarah Brady always insisted on a computer
system at the federal level to log Brady checks, and unfortunately, the NRA obliged
her. It is these kinds of systems that will be, undoubtedly, the tools to disarm
Americans.

What can you do? If you are a Larimer county resident, call Sheriff Alderden's office
at 970-498-5100 and urge him to discontinue the practice of lumping concealed
weapons permit holders with criminals. If you are permit holder in Larimer, you
should demand he remove you from the criminal database immediately.

Some Larimer County Permit Holders are considering filing a lawsuit against the
Sheriff for failing to disclose that he would enter your name into the database.

For residents of other counties, standby: we'll post the list of Sheriffs Departments
that log you into CCIC as soon as we get them.
 
When I lived in Texas, if a LEO stopped you for a traffic violation and you had a CHL, the first thing he would usually ask is, "Do you have your weapon on you?" I do not know if that info was in a CRIMINAL database or not but it was available to them.

GT
 
Outrageous! :fire:

But, it would be good to find out if reserve deputy sheriffs, retired LEOs, etc., are similarly listed. The database may be a field or two short of adequate.... :rolleyes:
 
In Utah information about whether you are a permit holder is on your DL record when a police officer runs your license.
 
Methinks the media got some of it wrong. Most states have it to where the CHL comes up if stopped. That is a state computer system, not a criminal database.

Criminal databases are intelligence dumps. Lots of rules governing dissemination of information.
 
When they ruled no fault on behalf of the officer that cut the lady's finger off.....it added one more bit of credence to the notion that they are holding all of the cards and, they can do any damned thing they want to and get away with it.:fire:
 
[QUOTE"Everyone's a perp" is an
extremely common phrase in law enforcement circles.
[/QUOTE]

So then, what's the problem when we lump all cops in with "a few bad apples" ...?

Citizen motto: "Every cop is a JBT"
 
Sad, most of the troops I know in I70 west of Denver kinda look at as a ready backup if they are in a bind!Course, most of these guys I regularly shoot with at Clear Creek County range.
Dan
 
My CCW is from Larimer County, so I'll write a letter and send it out early this week.

Here's the CCIC information from the CBI:
Mission: The Colorado Crime Information Center is a computerized information system established as a service to all criminal justice agencies. The mission is to provide and maintain accurate and timely documented criminal justice information in an effort to prevent crime and protect life and property by enabling the rapid exchange of valid, complete information among criminal justice agencies.

Crime Information Center Unit Functions and Objectives: The Crime Information Center (CCIC) provides interagency telecommunications and information services for criminal justice agencies: centralized indices of people, things and events of interest to more than one agency. Justice agencies use CCIC to communicate with each other statewide and nationwide (through integrated national systems) to identify missing persons, known criminal offenders, people involved in crime, and property involved in crime. CCIC operates every hour of every day of the year maintaining computer equipment and connected telecommunications lines statewide, in addition to links to counterpart systems in other states. The CCIC provides limited computer support services to the Executive Director of the Colorado Department of Public Safety, to the Colorado State Patrol, to the Colorado Division of Criminal Justice, and to the Colorado Peace Officers Standards and Training Board (P.O.S.T.).

Local law enforcement agencies use CCIC as an index of wanted and missing persons and property, to identify: people and property involved in crime; members of criminal gangs; stolen property; criminal suspects; criminal methods of operation; reported crime; reported arrests; and to share crime bulletins about major crimes in other states from which suspects may flee to Colorado. Through CCIC, the State Patrol and other enforcement agencies are linked to the State's list of drivers with revoked, suspended or denied driving privileges at the Motor Vehicle Division of the Department of Revenue.

Local law enforcement, sheriffs, district attorneys, the State Patrol and correctional authorities use CCIC continuously to exchange information necessary to coordinate and further their work. Were these agencies unable to communicate rapidly, accurately and in writing, they would be handicapped in their effort to identify repeat offenders, fugitives, habitual traffic law violators, missing children and stolen property. CCIC's three operational units, Identification, Program Support, and Information Technology, with personnel stationed at the CBI headquarters, assure full time support to system users. The Deputy Director responsible for program administration is assisted by three unit supervisors in the administration of the laws and regulations governing CCIC and it's information

-z
 
I hate to burst your bubble, but the most common use for the CCIC system is to check the driver's license status of law abiding motorists. I, like every other license holder in this state am "in the system". Obviously I am distressed that "the man" is oppressing me by lumping me in with murders and rapists, but I think I'll get by. What's really going on here? The RMGO wants Vermont or nothing, and they are obviously willing to throw the folks down Denver way under the bus and settle for nothing. If we fail to get shall issue in Colorado again this year, this idiocy will be why.:banghead:
 
Roadkill Coyote-

If you have a good argument for why we should be flagged as CCW holders in this database, I'm all ears.

Here are a couple reasons why I'm against it (for the time being):

  1. As described by the CBI, according to its mission statement, the CCIC database is concerned with "criminal justice information", e.g.: "people and property involved in crime; members of criminal gangs; stolen property; criminal suspects; criminal methods of operation; reported crime; reported arrests; and to share crime bulletins about major crimes in other states from which suspects may flee to Colorado." and to aid in "their effort to identify repeat offenders, fugitives, habitual traffic law violators, missing children and stolen propery".

    Are we "people ... involved in crime"? Are we members of criminal gangs? Are we involved with stolen property? Are we criminal suspects? Do we have arrests? Are we repeat offenders, fugutives, or habitual traffic law violators? No! Our CCW status has nothing to do with any of these, and we are the "certified good guys".

    So if this CCIC Mission Statement is to be believed, our CCW status absolutely does not belong in the CCIC database.
  2. Regarding "Officer Safety", we have been certified by the Sheriff himself as the "good guys". You can't do much more than speed on the way to work and still qualify for a CCW. That I have a CCW is prima facie evidence that I am not a threat to an officer's safety. Thus, there is no need for it to be flagged in the database. If an officer is always cognizant of the threat of weapons, our status can only allay those fears.

    Second of all, as a condition of CCW issuance, we have agreed to immediately let an officer know we are carrying whenever contacted by a LEO. So we will let the officer know anyway.

    In summary, since we are the "good guys", it seems like this rationale does not fix any risky case.
  3. Since Colorado does not have statewide "Shall Issue" nor statewide guidelines for officer interaction with a CCW-holder and we have several locales (e.g. Denver!) that are downright hostile to guns, having this information in the database opens the door for harassment and poor treatment of CCW holders when they are passing through those locales, if the person is carrying or not. For example, if I'm driving through Denver with a trunk full of guns, I'd just as soon not have a LEO start quizzing me on what weapons I've got, just because he saw "CCW" when he ran my license.

    Likewise, and perhaps more distressing, is that since this is going to show up in a context that usually has negative information (e.g. "Mr. X is a habitual traffic offender". "Mr X. is involved in crime"), it will be easy for the "CCW Holder" or "Has Concealed Weapons" information to be interpreted negatively. I don't want such a misunderstanding to cause a felony stop. (Thankfully, I don't have a dog yet.)

    Remember, we don't have pre-emption yet!
  4. In states that have state-wide shall-issue CCW, some of them report CCW status when one's license is run. As mentioned before, having statewide guidelines ensure that "all" officers know what this means, and how to deal with it. Is the CCIC database the right place for this data? The CCIC database, by definition, is for criminal data.
  5. It was never indicated to us CCW holders that this data would be used in such a manner.

Those are the main reasons I think this is a bad idea. If there's a good argument for the other side, I'm all ears.

-z

PS. Another reason why this makes little sense: We can already carry loaded guns in our glovebox/console without a CCW. So permit "lackers" are almost as likely to be armed and they won't show up in the database.
 
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In answer to your questions,

1.) The quoted mission statement is not comprehensive. Being referenced in the computer does not imply that your any more "dangerous" than anybody else.

2.) Regarding Officer Safety, I never made that argument, I think its a poor reason for the information to be in the computer. OTOH, I believe a system that allowed a permit to be queried for validity would be useful. It would certainly prevent anyone with a laminator from whipping up there own permit (which would eventually crash the system for all of us). The best reason to have a "flag" system would be that it would speed things up on a contact, because the dispatch wouldn't have to send a separate inquiry to check the status of a permit, if it were necessary. On the other hand, permit numbers in shall-issue states are small enough that if Colorado adopted such a system, a separate query for validity shouldn't be a burden. I would rather a separate query was required, myself.

3.) If the problem is officers in a few places, then why don't we concentrate on adding language on officer interactions to the current legislation, instead of trying to sink the bill that has a real chance of getting shall-issue passed in Colorado? As to the "negative" context of information in the computer, I repeat, the most common information returned in such a query is "license status valid", which doesn't bring too many negative stereotypes to my mind, but to each his own.

4.) The CCIC is by definition for any information of interest to the criminal justice system, which includes far more than just criminal records. As I said, if Colorado goes shall issue, there will be a legitimate need for the ability to check the validity of permits encoutered in the course of routine business, and a system that doesn't allow that WILL result in officers coming to suspect every permit holder they encounter, because they could have cranked that thing out on the laminator in their basement. If you want officers to come to see a permit holder as a "certified good guy" then set up a system that will acheive that.

As to the reason behind this whole discussion, in their post election anaysis of November the eighth, 2002, the RMGO clearly lays out that they would prefer no bill at all to one that has ANY provisions that they oppose, like a training requirement, or a database. Anybody who lives in Denver ought to nip over there and give it a read.

RMGO's post election call to throw denverites under the bus
 
R.C.,

You said:
The RMGO wants Vermont or nothing, and they are obviously willing to throw the folks down Denver way under the bus and settle for nothing.
Are you of the opinion that the rest of the state should take a step backward so that the people of Denver can take one forward? How does that wash?

I'd be happy if they simply changed "may" to "shall" and left the rest of it alone. When they start adding on, we start moving to the rear.

The Chlouber bill is NOT an improvement for the majority of the state. It may be for you, and you can argue it on that merit if you like. But for the rest of us it's a loser. And passing a bad bill IS worse than doing nothing at all.
 
I agree with Bob wholeheartedly. I will not support a bill that creates any new restrictions--like no carry at K-12 schools in the Chlouber bill--so some people in Denver can carry. Pre-emption would be nice; reciprocity would be nice, but I rarely leave the state. I do pass by schools. I do eat dinner in places that serve booze. I do all of this peacefully, while armed. I refuse to surrender this right.
 
RC-
... instead of trying to sink the bill that has a real chance of getting shall-issue passed in Colorado?

My stance on the issue of Alderden entering us into CCIC is totally independent of the Chlouber bill. I don't understand why you are trying to link the two issues. If there were state pre-emption and statewide shall-issue, in addition to statewide guidelines for officer interaction with permit holders, I might think CCIC "registration" was more benign. It would depend on those issues. As it stands now, though, I think it's bad for those reasons.

As for
RMGO's post election call to throw denverites under the bus

I hold that Denverites themselves "threw themselves under the bus" by voting in the people who brought the anti-gun restrictions they currently enjoy.

-z
 
BL-

Your ability to carry legally is currently at the whim of the Sheriff, or Chief of Police where you got the permit. The next office holder may, or may not allow you the luxury of complaceny. I believe that some compromise now is the only realistic way to move forward, and that the Choulber bill is an clear improvement for all of Colorado. The alternative is to effectively do nothing.

J4A-

I agree that the Choulber bill is not perfect. But to take a stand against trading any new restriction for the shall issue is short-sighted. We are all currently under the enormous "whim restriction", and if it doesn't effect you today it could tomorrow. By the way, the RMGO announcement linked above makes it quite clear that they consider any restriction, including any training requirement, as well as the database issue to be deal-killers. Personally, I don't see the numerous other states that have passed shall issue with those restrictions as having surrendered, on the contrary, they are moving forward, and in some cases working to ease those restrictions, while Colorado is mired in the past.

ZS-

  • I'm linking the two because the RMGO is using one in pursuit of the other. Look at what's going on in the legislature, the stated position of the RMGO and the timing of their e-mail. We are discussing an issue that has everything to do with moving shall issue forward in Colorado.
  • I will neither write off, nor pass arbitrary judgement on every person living in Denver. Someday I might have to move to a place like that for work. But for the grace of god go my rights as well.
 
Started a thread to hash out the Colorado CCW debate here

I'm licensed through Larimer as well & take offense to our good Sheriff stuffing us into a same-same database as with criminals. That a better database doesn't exist - well, it probably should, no?

Part of the statewide dyslexia associateed with our CCW laws.

We currently enjoy one of the best of all the states.

I haven't yet had the chance to talk to Sheriff Alderden - tomorrow hopefully to get a feel of his reasoning.
 
Your ability to carry legally is currently at the whim of the Sheriff, or Chief of Police where you got the permit. The next office holder may, or may not allow you the luxury of complaceny.
Fairly large assumption on your part that I'm "complacent". I work to get pro-gun candidates elected to all levels at every election cycle.

Another thing for you to consider: You can go outside of Denver right now and get a permit issued from another sheriff, and that permit WILL be legal and lawful in Denver. Then the rest of us wouldn't have to put up with Chlouber's new restrictions on our right to defend ourselves. Maybe you'd consent to driving half an hour or so to prevent the rest of us from taking it in the shorts.

And I'm still surprised/shocked that Jim Alderden did this. Hope that labgrade can get an answer from him soon.
 
I am sad that my virgin post on The High Road has to be on this subject. I would rather type about shooting.
I worked on getting the sheriff elected and have talked with him on many occasions. He always struck me as a stand up guy.

You know that scene in Braveheart when Mel Gibson was wounded and was retreating from the battle and he looked into the eyes of the man who betrayed him? That look on Mel's face best describes how I felt when I found out about this.

I have a six page draft letter to the sheriff. It will have to be heavily edited before I send it to him. Right now I am classified as a 'Person of Interest'. I don't want to be upgraded to a 'Person of SpecialInterest'.

I fully expected that sooner or later we would be in a database. However, being included in a criminal database is just not acceptable.

I too, would like all LEOs to be included in the same database. It is quite obvious that LEOs use their weapons irresponsibly than CCW holders. If CCW holders stepped out of line and committed crimes with their fire arms the antis would be up in arms. Why just the other day an off-duty Aurora police officer shot and killed a man Saturday. Here is a link to the story.
Cop had 2 beers before shooting
http://www.denverpost.com/Stories/0,1413,36%7E53%7E1124375,00.html?search=filter

Any way I did some searching on the sheriff trying to find his views in the past and why all of a sudden he is concerned about LEOs coming in contact with CCW holders.

Here are some of his statements from the past and some other information for you to reference.

On September 4 , 2000 Sheriff Alderden appeared on the PBS News Hour in a segment hosted by Lee Hochberg of Oregon Public Television called CONCEALED WEAPONS. On the show were Dave Greiling, Ken Chlober and Richard Shockly. Here are a couple of quotes by the sheriff from the show

JIM ALDERDEN: People who apply for concealed weapons permits are law-abiding, honest citizens, and they're willing to take the risk to help their neighbor, should that become necessary. So in that aspect, I think our community is safer.
JIM ALDERDEN: There is no public safety endangerment by issuing concealed weapons permits.

For the whole transcript
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/politics/jan-june00/guns.html


On November 8, 2001 he was quoted in an MSNBC news report as saying . “An armed society is a polite society,†says Alderden. The article is here
http://www.msnbc.com/news/654986.asp?cp1=1


I host a Bill of Rights Day Celebration in Loveland every year. I invited him to speak. I thought that he might feel uncomfortable because others speakers were members of the Tyranny Response Team and some hard core 2nd Amenendmet folks.
On December 15, 2000 at the Bill of Rights Day Celebration in Loveland he gave an impressive talk about the history of the Bill of Rights and even accepted a couple dozen pocket Constitutions which he said he would give to his deputies.
http://www.freedomnet.cnchost.com/bill_of_rights/bord-2000/bord-2000story.htm

Here is a link to his site
Here is the sheriff's mission statement
http://www.co.larimer.co.us/depts/sherif/Mission_Value.htm
And here is the ethics statement he supposedly employs.
http://www.co.larimer.co.us/depts/sherif/Ethics.htm

Anyway, It is nice to be here.
 
You'll get used to it.

Every Australian gun owner -- all details -- is entered into our National CrimTrac database, along with rapists, paedophiles, drug dealers etc.

Haven't you worked out yet that you are societally unacceptable because you own firearms?? :fire:

Bruce
 
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