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Colorado Sheriffs, CCW, & "bad guys" database

Discussion in 'Legal' started by labgrade, Feb 11, 2004.

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  1. labgrade

    labgrade Member In Memoriam

    Dec 22, 2002
    west of Loveland, CO

    At Least One Colorado Sheriff Entering Concealed Carry Permit Holders into Criminal Database

    Jan. 20, 2003 - We've been working on an issue that developed, of all places, in a county that has more per capita permits than any county in Colorado.

    Just a few weeks ago RMGO Northern Colorado Coordinator Ray Hickman was contacted by Dell Bean, a former law enforcement officer.

    Bean was returning home from vacation when a State Trooper pulled him over for no front license plate. When the Trooper accessed his in-car computer database, Bean came up as a concealed weapons permit holder in CCIC, the Colorado Crime Information Center database.

    You can read more about CCIC at:


    You can also read a Fort Collins Coloradoan article at:


    To summarize, the CCIC database is used as an "index of wanted and missing persons and property, to identify: people and property involved in crime; members of criminal gangs; stolen property; criminal suspects; criminal methods of operation; reported crime; reported arrests; and to share crime bulletins about major crimes in other states from which suspects may flee to Colorado."

    In other words, permit holders -- who have already proven themselves law-abiding citizens -- are lumped in with rapists, murderers, burglars and thugs. When Hickman was confronted with the information by Bean, RMGO staff began an investigation of this practice.

    We have asked a legislator to request from CBI -- which administers the CCIC database -- a list of Sheriffs who are entering permit holders into the database as well as CBI's statutory authority for doing so. To date, the legislator has had no response.

    Larimer County Republican Sheriff Jim Alderden began the practice of entering these names in CCIC late last year, ostensibly following the lead of former Boulder County Sheriff George Epp, a Democrat.

    Alderden has issued more than 2,000 concealed weapons permits, including a brief period when he issued them for free in response to the 9/11 attacks.

    But Alderden clearly has a blind spot. He's obviously more concerned with how he is seen by law enforcement agencies, who are notoriously anti-gun, than his constituents.

    Alderden was elected almost entirely on the concealed carry issue when he challenged Republican Sheriff Richard Shockley in a GOP primary. Clearly, it was the gun issue that trounced Shockley.

    While there are many law enforcement officers who are supporters of the constitution, they are becoming the exception rather than the rule. The push of law enforcement associations to create stricter gun laws has pushed the average law enforcement officer far to the left of their natural allies, the law-abiding gun owners.

    RMGO's Executive Director confronted a Democrat sheriff about the practice of entering permit holders into CCIC, and the sheriff quickly denied any intention of doing so.

    The sheriff's reason for not entering permit holders into CCIC? When the idea was floated at a Sheriff's association meeting, the Democrat sheriff quizzed other law enforcement personnel about what they would do if they pulled someone over who was flagged as a permit holder. The Democrat sheriff said he was appalled by the comments of some officers he asked, and didn't want to subject his permit holders to such a humiliating and possibly dangerous situation.

    Alderden claims the practice is for simple officer safety, so an officer knows someone is likely armed when they are stopped.

    Why would an officer be concerned about a citizen who has taken the time and expense to get that permit in the first place? The unfortunate answer is that law enforcement deals with, largely, the dregs of society on day-in day-out basis. This leads them to treat EVERYONE as a "perp" or perpetrator. "Everyone's a perp" is an extremely common phrase in law enforcement circles.

    While the issue of being flagged in a database as a "dangerous person" is concerning, even more troubling is the potential of law enforcement to link that information with other databases.

    Imagine Denver Police Department linking CCIC information to license plates. Citizens should shudder at the chilling effect on our rights this system would have.

    But ironically, it isn't coming from Denver. The threat is coming from a sheriff who has been arguably the most pro-gun Sheriff in Colorado.

    Just this fall, Alderden issued a dozen permits to Denver County residents. He came short of announcing that he would issue to any law-abiding Denver resident, likely because of the heat he would have taken from the County Sheriffs of Colorado (CSOC), which is Colorado's mafia for Sheriffs.

    For years CSOC has been opposed to concealed carry permits. Now that the tide has shifted against them, and almost every sheriff is issuing permits, CSOC has tried to find ways to limit that authority. CSOC, which is now run by George Epp and represented in the legislature by Peg Ackerman, is an integral part of gun control efforts in Colorado.

    How does this CCIC issue effect concealed carry reform in the legislature?

    For years, RMGO has warned legislators and gun owners alike that any concealed carry reform bill had to have a prohibition on statewide databases. We've run amendments to the NRA's concealed carry bills to remove the database they establish in their legislation.

    Senate Bill 24, sponsored by Sen. Ken Chlouber (R-Leadville) and Al White (R- Winter Park) and drafted by the NRA, not only encourages Sheriffs to share permit holder information but fails to prohibit using CCIC as a registry of "dangerous persons."

    Senate Bill 63 has a specific prohibition against any such database. In SB63, Sheriffs are only allowed to determine validity of a permit with their county maintained list of permit holders.

    Some will claim a statewide database is needed to check validity. But both concealed carry bills offered this session (and most in the last 8 years of CCW debate) have been permits issued by a sheriffs department. That means a simple phone call to the issuing sheriff's department will authenticate the permit.

    Anti-gunners want a statewide database, because it is the kind of information that is otherwise difficult to acquire. That's why Sarah Brady always insisted on a computer system at the federal level to log Brady checks, and unfortunately, the NRA obliged her. It is these kinds of systems that will be, undoubtedly, the tools to disarm Americans.

    What can you do? If you are a Larimer county resident, call Sheriff Alderden's office at 970-498-5100 and urge him to discontinue the practice of lumping concealed weapons permit holders with criminals. If you are permit holder in Larimer, you should demand he remove you from the criminal database immediately.

    Some Larimer County Permit Holders are considering filing a lawsuit against the Sheriff for failing to disclose that he would enter your name into the database.

    For residents of other counties, standby: we'll post the list of Sheriffs Departments that log you into CCIC as soon as we get them."

    & from an e-mail alerty-thing:

    After more than a year of pressuring the Colorado Bureau of
    Investigation to release the names of those Sheriff Departments that
    enter Concealed Carry Permit Holders into the CBI Criminal Database, we
    now have the information.

    Thanks to gutsy State Rep. Greg Brophy (R-Wray), this list is now public

    Remember, Sheriff's offices (and the Denver police) are the only offices
    now issuing permits. But prior to the 2003 legislation, Police
    Departments also issued permits, and therefore could enter permit
    holders into CCIC, the Colorado Crime Information Center.

    You can view a refresher course on the issue at:


    When the 2003 law was passed, it allowed Sheriffs to continue to enter
    these names into the database. House Bill 1205, which will be heard on
    Monday, Feb. 16th, would make that statewide database of permit holders

    Why would a sheriff want to enter permit holders into that database?
    Essentially, their claim can be distilled down to keeping records on
    "persons of interest." What that means is that you are considered a
    dangerous person, just like a convicted rapist or murderer.

    The following Sheriff Departments are entering concealed carry permit
    holders into CCIC. Included are the number of entries into that
    database from that department (if the number is very small, such as El
    Paso county, it means they are not entering permit holders into CCIC):

    Sheriff Offices

    SO Adams County 732
    SO Arapahoe County 146
    SO Archuleta County 151
    SO Boulder County 669
    SO Delta County 182
    SO Dolores County 27
    SO Eagle County 42
    SO Elbert County 18
    SO El Paso County 1
    SO Fremont County 103
    SO Gilpin County 34
    SO Gunnison County 77
    SO Hinsdale County 36
    SO Jefferson County 1460
    SO Kit Carson County 40
    SO Lake County 38
    SO La Plata County 666
    SO Larimer County 2425
    SO Lincoln County 5
    SO Logan County 54
    SO Mesa County 1085
    SO Moffat County 6
    SO Montezuma County 1
    SO Montrose County 389
    SO Otero County 32
    SO Ouray County 11
    SO Pitkin County 27
    SO Rio Blanco County 100
    SO San Juan County 4
    SO Teller County 167
    SO Yuma County 22
    SO Broomfield 103

    Police Departments

    PD Greenwood Village 7
    PD Pagosa Springs 1
    PD Carbondale 5
    PD Gunnison 2
    PD Arvada 1
    PD Golden 24
    PD Edgewater 1
    PD Fort Collins 1
    PD Palisade 29
    PD Monte Vista 8

    To contact any of the sheriff's departments, go to:


    What you can do about it?

    We'll be offering suggestions as to how to pass HB1205 through the
    Colorado House (it already has every member of the committee it is being
    heard by as a co-sponsor) later.

    For now, you should call your sheriff's department (if on this list) and
    DEMAND to be removed from this criminal database. It is an incredible
    outrage that Sheriffs would include permit holders on a statewide
    database with criminals, all designed to track you."

    Good thing I helped out on Alderdan's election, yada. :rolleyes:

    I guess it's better than not having a CCW anyway (I don't, as it was taken due to over-reacting Sheriffs.....sorry, but) ... I don't which is "worse." Being in the "bad guys" database for first having a CCW, or for being a convicted misdom-guy for obstruction .....

    Just gotta scratch my head at this.
  2. motorep

    motorep Member

    Dec 24, 2002
    Labgrade, I'm not sure that this is completely accurate. As I understand it, the list that is accessed is a "persons of interest" list which can also include law enforcement people. Maybe speak to the sheriff instead of taking for granted what comes from RMGO. I'm not saying they're wrong, but I don't think it's the whole story.
  3. spacemanspiff

    spacemanspiff Senior Member

    Dec 24, 2002
    excerpts from the link about CCIC

    motorep, by the CBI's own admission, this system is primarily used to identify criminals. why should permit-holders be lumped in with them? what makes permit-holders more "interesting" to a LEO than the average joe?
  4. Standing Wolf

    Standing Wolf Member in memoriam

    Dec 24, 2002
    Idahohoho, the jolliest state
    I'd guess this is partly law enforcement paranoia and partly record keeping for the sake of record keeping. Whatever the sources, it stinks.
  5. labgrade

    labgrade Member In Memoriam

    Dec 22, 2002
    west of Loveland, CO

    "Maybe speak to the sheriff instead of taking for granted what comes from RMGO. I'm not saying they're wrong, but I don't think it's the whole story."

    That'd be nice, no?

    Strange enough thing is that I've attempted to do so (speek to the Sheriff) - many a time. Repeated attempts to either confirm, or deny, this list's existence has been met with total silence. Phone calls, e-mails, calls to his own home ....

    I put Money in this guy's campaign (Alderdan), I'm SAS Legal/Gov-Affairs Director for CO, got "some clout" w/RMGO, yada. Sheriff Jim ain't answering questions sadly.

    I fairly-well have had personal contact with both Dudley & Jim. I'll put my money on Dudley any day - period.

    & FWIW, I'm just passing on a e-mail-thing I got - not trying to make policy here.
  6. labgrade

    labgrade Member In Memoriam

    Dec 22, 2002
    west of Loveland, CO
    "what makes permit-holders more "interesting" to a LEO than the average joe?"

    Do you even need to ask!? :confused:

    A previously tagged person who is known to carry a gun is not a "person of interest" to a cop!?

    You gotta be kidding me!

    Not to be too blunt about it, but the "more jaded types" consider two classes = "us & them."

    You, if not a cop, are "them."

    Get it?
  7. motorep

    motorep Member

    Dec 24, 2002
    Not defending the policy, just adding my info. Labgrade- unfortunate that your sheriff is unavailable/unapproachable. It's not that way here, Jeffco.
  8. labgrade

    labgrade Member In Memoriam

    Dec 22, 2002
    west of Loveland, CO
    Funny enough that during the election, & just afterwards, my Sheriff was "available & approachable."

    He is no longer either.

    + he's big-time on the band-wagon for the retraction of the term limit thingy. (He's outa here as of '06 - term-limited out.)

    Almost acting like a politician, rather than a Sheriff - a man of the people.

    & ya know what really disgusts me to no end about this guy?

    Is that he campaigned about the realities of CCW & he defeated his own Repub inccumbeant about this whole issue. His whole campaign was about CCW & he was the very first & most adamant to place every CCW-holder into the NICS data-base.

    Grrrrr & :barf:
  9. George Hill

    George Hill Member

    Dec 22, 2002
    Uintah Basin, UT
    This is why I don't have a CCW Permit.

    It's unconstitutional on so many levels...
  10. Jay Kominek

    Jay Kominek Member

    Jan 20, 2004
    Boulder County, CO
    What is the date on the list of CCIC entry counts?
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