cowboy77845
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Call them and ask. I agree that people are selling their stuff. Heirs do not want it. All they want is a fast buck. I know mine do not want mine.
Colt 1903 Mirror finish
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cowboy77845
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Does that mean the 3500 will appreciate or die on the vine. I have a GI one so I am interested. Probably will never shoot it enough to break a part. I am 77 so all the stuff I thought I would shoot has wound up being for looking at. and cleaning. Am getting tired of that part. But am not ready to part with any of it. At present nobody seems to care about SxS shotguns.No, the tooling will not be turned over to Colt.
The original plan by the CEO of US Armament was to have Colt take up production after the licensing numbers were met.
But- Colt isn't interested.
They can't handle what they're already doing & will not be producing a 1903 or 1908 in-house.
This comes from US Armament.
Colt really has almost nothing to do with this pistol.
You don't order through their channels, they don't service them or provide parts.
They DID provide the gold grip medallions.
It's very doubtful that US Arm will extend beyond that 3500.
Denis
I have no idea where the new US Armament 03s & 08s will do in the collector market.
They're well-built, with forged & milled parts, no shortcuts like castings or MIMs, and they shoot well.
I borrowed one to work with & it attached itself too severely to my Gotta-Keeps to let it go.
As a quality-made repro, with licensed Colt markings, it may easily develop something of its own collectible niche, but can't say for sure.
Denis
They're well-built, with forged & milled parts, no shortcuts like castings or MIMs, and they shoot well.
I borrowed one to work with & it attached itself too severely to my Gotta-Keeps to let it go.
As a quality-made repro, with licensed Colt markings, it may easily develop something of its own collectible niche, but can't say for sure.
Denis
32 acp fan
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I am interested if you ever want to part company with any. I am mostly semi autos 32 acps; and probably get a few early Colt Revolvers. I went after a Cabelas Gun Library High Polish the other day, and after someone sold a $60,000 collection for retirement 3 months earlier, another buyer went into this Colorado located Cabelas and bought over $100,000 of Colt and Winchester and got the high polish one I was wanting to obtain. I still don't know what to think about that kind of purchase by one person. It seems to take the fun out of the hunt.
cowboy77845
Member
Do not have but one 32 acp. Have 327s and SxS shotguns. Had a Marlin 32-20 converted to 327 Federal.. Have not had a chance to shoot it yet, but that is one hot cartridge through a rifle.
32 acp fan
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An added note to the original post about factory finish and the fact these parts including the barrel were exposed to high 550 degree to 650 degree Fahrenheit temperatures. The barrels were also exposed to the temper bluing process and the rifling was never fully polished or possibly even wire brushed afterwards to polish. The 455,384 serial numbered Colt 1903 (above picture) barrel on initial inspection of the riffling appeared very "frosted" looking which initially I ran oiled steel wool and oil wet sanded 400 grit paper through to polish and later fully removed the finish in Evaporust cleaned up fairly well. It seems the tempering process may leave a tempered finish gunk in the rifling so what looks like frosting and pitting may just be remnants of the finish and indicate a very little shot barrel. If the insides of a Colt barrel are black on the rifling and lands then probably the barrel hasn't been fired much. If the lands are polished and rifling still black, then its been fired to an extent to polish the lands.
View attachment 766733
Colt sure use to make some fine looking pistols.
Colt sure use to make some fine looking pistols.
bannockburn
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Iggy
They sure did and the Colt Model 1908 Pocket Hammerless was one of their all-time classics!
They sure did and the Colt Model 1908 Pocket Hammerless was one of their all-time classics!
I have had the blue model 03 for years, but I'm holding if for a guy who's gathering up the money for it. I have this nickel 08 on a gun vendor friend's table at a gun show this weekend.
bannockburn
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Iggy
I found one like your nickel plated Model 1908 for my brother seven years ago. It was near mint and had factory pearl grips on it along with a vintage Heiser pocket holster for it.
I found one like your nickel plated Model 1908 for my brother seven years ago. It was near mint and had factory pearl grips on it along with a vintage Heiser pocket holster for it.
32 acp fan
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Hey everyone, I have been working real hard researching any and all mention of Colt finishes. I found these pics posted elsewhere. One with the oven photo of the worker close up is in the book "A Century of Achievement" by Colt Firearms. I have a copy of the book on the way I bought so I will confirm. Anyway these are the Colt, and Smith and Wesson American Gas Furnace rotating ovens.
The top photo obviously has the large factory leather belt on the sides of each for power; the Photo 47. was noted as Smith and Wesson operation and you can see the side mounted electric motors and switches. The three vertical coupling on top appears the rear one has a gauge I believe to be pressure gauge because the pipe connection appears to be sealed.
A Description of Colt's Hand Bluing Tempered Carbon Charcoal Bone Ash Trough Version (Circa 1917)
I only have examples in the 149,000 serial numbers so please post if you have later examples comparing the later patina differences you will see in the photos below. The time period is 1916 to 1917 and it is easy to confirm the different finishes. I have confirmed form multiple metal finishing sources that the "black" finish is direct result of the charcoal carbon oil burning smoke during the heating process. The later oven models will reflect black (smoke layered carbon) at one angle in the light; then the silver blue (tempered layer from temperature range). I tempered some rolled steel samples in my kitchen oven easily the silver blue tempering layer, but only got the black addition when rubbing the hot sample with motor oil that burns off. There is no doubt in my mind that the carbon exposures blackens the surface in the tempering process of the Colts.
Below are photo examples of the trough ovens, verse rotating ovens finishes of Colt 1903s. The trough models are very black, the oven models very black / silver blue variation as pistol rotated in the lighting. High polish models have no visible sanding polishing grain lines as shown below.
The following pics are Colt 1903 Serial # 14491 trough finished with / without overhead lighting: NOTE the perfect reflection of the light lens diffuser pattern.
The following pics are Colt 1903 Serial # 146419 having a slide and frame patina variation. Trough finished with very meticulously custom high polish with / without overhead lighting. Interestingly, with overhead lighting on, the finish looks identical to a nickel finish except nickel finishes do not turn black when you turn off the overhead light.
The following Colt 1903 Serial # 472958 is American Furnace rotating oven finish with / without overhead lighting. NOTE: The sanding polishing grain lines are clearly visible around the serial number which is a regular polish finish and not a high polish mirror finish.
Also this one is for sale on Gunbroker if any interested ending 1/14/2018 9:45 PM, I am EXRINGS1 seller.
The following engraved Colt 1903 Serial number 148705 is in my opinion 100% tempered blued very likely without any carbon charcoal smoke. This finish can be done in electric kilns. It is possible there was a hot box of charcoal which oil could have been injected to smoke fume. Basically your kiln chamber is sealed which you have a small metal box with charcoal inside the oven base then once you reach a certain temperature or time frame a tube allows oil to be squirt into the activated charcoal and smoke fume the chamber and pistol laying on the carbon layer.
The Colt's with the regular polish to high polish finish are very difficult to photograph. The above pistols were all photographed with 3- 100 watt LED Daylight bulbs in clamp lights with diffuser material ( white T-shirt / and lexan light lens used in fluorescent light boxes ). Due to reflection of light, and the actual absorption of light due to the carbon layer the auto features must be forced by shutting off ISO sensitivity on the Nikon DX 3000 shooting on aperture priority. I shoot on aperture to get the best focus on the edges of the center light focus metering and go highest aperture as possible . Many shots drop 1/60th speed even though there is plenty of light with 3 lights. Often the 1/60th speed is too slow to prevent camera shake and some blurring.
I hope everyone enjoys seeing a photo comparison with the same lighting and photographing set up of the Colt 1903s tempered carbon bluing. 8' clamp lights work well and save space. Be sure to have all light bulbs in the room and the clamp light bulbs all matched with Daylight bulbs. A different light source type light like incandescent will make a brown light reflection. I shoot in my garage and I changed out every single light bulb including the overhead door operator to all the same Daylight LED. This light source works great especially with cell phone digital cameras. Also spend the extra money on 75 to 100 watt verse 60 watt for greater lighting.
I hope this information demonstrates that there were some rarer examples of the Colt 903 that are known as high polish mirror blue. I am still searching for high polish mirror blue examples of the Colt 1908 but have not found any to date. A high polish mirror finish must reflect a full mirror type reflection under lighting to be a high polish mirror Colt. The overhead lighting clearly demonstrate the reflection created by high polish mirrored finishes. Plus the reflection off the surface of the surrounding objects, clamp light diffuser, my skin, etc.
The top photo obviously has the large factory leather belt on the sides of each for power; the Photo 47. was noted as Smith and Wesson operation and you can see the side mounted electric motors and switches. The three vertical coupling on top appears the rear one has a gauge I believe to be pressure gauge because the pipe connection appears to be sealed.
A Description of Colt's Hand Bluing Tempered Carbon Charcoal Bone Ash Trough Version (Circa 1917)
- From Charles H. Coles, past historian and curator of the Colt Museum. He described the early bluing process as follows:
HAND BLUING FOR SMALL ARMS BY COLT'S
"Hand bluing was done in a coal furnace about 10 feet long. Just above the fire was a solid grate to control the flame. The top of the grate was covered with ground charcoal and bone to the depth of approximately 3 feet. The charcoal was brought to a smolder. Parts to be blued were first thoroughly cleaned in gasoline by workmen wearing white gloves to prevent fingerprints and the placed on rods or holders (approximately 10) and placed in the smoldering charcoal. After two or three minutes they were withdrawn and rubbed with a handful of oakum or tow, and with a powder known as whiting. This was repeated approximately six times until the proper blue color was obtained."
As posted by: jplower http://www.coltforum.com/forums/single-action-army/100875-colt-bluing.html
NOTE: oakum or tow is a tar coated rope probably similar to burlap sack. The whiting is calcium carbonate or chalk which to my understanding rids the surface of organics material which may be in the charcoal. Bone ash char also can have a percentage of calcium carbonate and may activate the carbonization of the hot parts surface as well. Today bones ash is sold by Ebonex Corpation http://www.ebonex.com/history.html
In the rotating ovens the charcoal and bone ash mixture is reversed tumbled across the parts. The reel or rack of parts being put in the oven rotates one direction and an outer chamber drum that tumbles the charcoal and bone ash goes in the opposite direction of the reel / rack of parts.
Also, all sources indicate the parts whether in the trough or ovens is evacuated of oxygen around the parts and exposed to carbon. By burying the parts in the charcoal trough oxygen is reduced as the thermal heat rises near the parts placed at the top. I imagine as you de rack the parts to wipe with the oakum and whiting, would take some time.
NOTE: oakum or tow is a tar coated rope probably similar to burlap sack. The whiting is calcium carbonate or chalk which to my understanding rids the surface of organics material which may be in the charcoal. Bone ash char also can have a percentage of calcium carbonate and may activate the carbonization of the hot parts surface as well. Today bones ash is sold by Ebonex Corpation http://www.ebonex.com/history.html
In the rotating ovens the charcoal and bone ash mixture is reversed tumbled across the parts. The reel or rack of parts being put in the oven rotates one direction and an outer chamber drum that tumbles the charcoal and bone ash goes in the opposite direction of the reel / rack of parts.
Also, all sources indicate the parts whether in the trough or ovens is evacuated of oxygen around the parts and exposed to carbon. By burying the parts in the charcoal trough oxygen is reduced as the thermal heat rises near the parts placed at the top. I imagine as you de rack the parts to wipe with the oakum and whiting, would take some time.
Below are photo examples of the trough ovens, verse rotating ovens finishes of Colt 1903s. The trough models are very black, the oven models very black / silver blue variation as pistol rotated in the lighting. High polish models have no visible sanding polishing grain lines as shown below.
The following pics are Colt 1903 Serial # 14491 trough finished with / without overhead lighting: NOTE the perfect reflection of the light lens diffuser pattern.
The following pics are Colt 1903 Serial # 146419 having a slide and frame patina variation. Trough finished with very meticulously custom high polish with / without overhead lighting. Interestingly, with overhead lighting on, the finish looks identical to a nickel finish except nickel finishes do not turn black when you turn off the overhead light.
The following Colt 1903 Serial # 472958 is American Furnace rotating oven finish with / without overhead lighting. NOTE: The sanding polishing grain lines are clearly visible around the serial number which is a regular polish finish and not a high polish mirror finish.
Also this one is for sale on Gunbroker if any interested ending 1/14/2018 9:45 PM, I am EXRINGS1 seller.
The following engraved Colt 1903 Serial number 148705 is in my opinion 100% tempered blued very likely without any carbon charcoal smoke. This finish can be done in electric kilns. It is possible there was a hot box of charcoal which oil could have been injected to smoke fume. Basically your kiln chamber is sealed which you have a small metal box with charcoal inside the oven base then once you reach a certain temperature or time frame a tube allows oil to be squirt into the activated charcoal and smoke fume the chamber and pistol laying on the carbon layer.
The Colt's with the regular polish to high polish finish are very difficult to photograph. The above pistols were all photographed with 3- 100 watt LED Daylight bulbs in clamp lights with diffuser material ( white T-shirt / and lexan light lens used in fluorescent light boxes ). Due to reflection of light, and the actual absorption of light due to the carbon layer the auto features must be forced by shutting off ISO sensitivity on the Nikon DX 3000 shooting on aperture priority. I shoot on aperture to get the best focus on the edges of the center light focus metering and go highest aperture as possible . Many shots drop 1/60th speed even though there is plenty of light with 3 lights. Often the 1/60th speed is too slow to prevent camera shake and some blurring.
I hope everyone enjoys seeing a photo comparison with the same lighting and photographing set up of the Colt 1903s tempered carbon bluing. 8' clamp lights work well and save space. Be sure to have all light bulbs in the room and the clamp light bulbs all matched with Daylight bulbs. A different light source type light like incandescent will make a brown light reflection. I shoot in my garage and I changed out every single light bulb including the overhead door operator to all the same Daylight LED. This light source works great especially with cell phone digital cameras. Also spend the extra money on 75 to 100 watt verse 60 watt for greater lighting.
I hope this information demonstrates that there were some rarer examples of the Colt 903 that are known as high polish mirror blue. I am still searching for high polish mirror blue examples of the Colt 1908 but have not found any to date. A high polish mirror finish must reflect a full mirror type reflection under lighting to be a high polish mirror Colt. The overhead lighting clearly demonstrate the reflection created by high polish mirrored finishes. Plus the reflection off the surface of the surrounding objects, clamp light diffuser, my skin, etc.
Last edited:
32 acp fan
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I am posting pages from the book Rust Bluing and Browing By R.H. Angier published in 1936 but I believe the author was writing the book circa 1920s or a little earlier.
The appendix H.1. Temper Blue, is Colt's, Smith and Wesson's, and Savage's and maybe others method of finishing the firearm using the charcoal temper blue technique. As you read, the insert from Major D. B. Wesson, Vice President of Smith and Wesson, you see the description of the ovens used to blue the pistols. For the record, "CARBONIA" was Smith's and Wesson's gun finish based on a product mixture made by the American Gas Furnace Company and sold exclusively to Smith & Wesson.
H.2. Nitre Blue (Niter Blue), is Niter bluing giving the fire blue safety, pins, and trigger accents. The H.1. temperature chart is the same range for dipping parts into boiling potassium nitrate achieving the desired niter blue accents. A stainless steel pan and burner can achieve the boiling point. The reason for the submersion is better control of achieving the desired color's temperature. Also, I found a clip on deep fryer thermometer 750° F at Walmart called "King Kooker 5 inch thermometer Model # S15" distributed by Metal Fusion, Inc Jefferson, LA King Kooker Outdoor Cooking Products
The ingredient, Potassium Nitrate is Spectracide Stump Remover; the crystals are 100% and clean as I dissolved them into hot water, ran through coffee filter strainer and found no debris in 3 packages which will dissolve in a quart of boiling water; and then recrystallized by refrigerating / freezing the crystals which you then spoon out into a Pyrex rectangular (case you warm in oven to dry) and allow to air dry stirring occasionally. You really don't have to dissolve the crystals yourself as they are pure, but it really is fun DIY home chemistry. Try it with your kids because watching the crystals form and sink in the water is cool, and it happens fast as the hot water cools. Check YouTube for some videos on solubility recrystallization of potassium nitrate. As for the manganese peroxide, I believe it may either add in a more durable niter bluing surface coating or was used to reduce the boiling point of the potassium nitrate. I hope a knowledgeable chemist will respond with their expertise. Manganese peroxide can be bought in pure form on Ebay.
H.3. Nitrite Black, I am certain is the early process of "Hot Salt Boiling Bluing, the method that is now used for gun bluing today. Interestingly, one reason I believe this book to be written earlier than 1936 because it was in the early 1900s the hot salt bluing may have begun to be perfected and much later implemented therefore the rudimentary instructions.
H.4. Ignore, it was part of the page printing.
Notice the upper photo of Colt's factory and the belt drive power; and the lower picture Smith & Wesson's the American Gas Furnace Company's rotating oven has been converted to an electric drive motor mounted on the sides. Until, I came across these photos, I never realized the company's were running the number of ovens as shown. Also, the gasoline used to clean the pistol parts, I read was heated to 160° F. Can you imagine the EPA, or OSHA today. Plus, look at how those men are handling 600° F parts pulling them from the ovens and resting the reels on the stands. You can why this method was phased out eventually. Tempered carbon charcoal bluing truly allowed for a lot of variation in finishes and color of the Colt and Smith and Wesson pistols.
I hope this information especially the description of the Smith and Wesson's gun finishes which Colt's was the same process allows people to know the correct method and finishes.
The appendix H.1. Temper Blue, is Colt's, Smith and Wesson's, and Savage's and maybe others method of finishing the firearm using the charcoal temper blue technique. As you read, the insert from Major D. B. Wesson, Vice President of Smith and Wesson, you see the description of the ovens used to blue the pistols. For the record, "CARBONIA" was Smith's and Wesson's gun finish based on a product mixture made by the American Gas Furnace Company and sold exclusively to Smith & Wesson.
H.2. Nitre Blue (Niter Blue), is Niter bluing giving the fire blue safety, pins, and trigger accents. The H.1. temperature chart is the same range for dipping parts into boiling potassium nitrate achieving the desired niter blue accents. A stainless steel pan and burner can achieve the boiling point. The reason for the submersion is better control of achieving the desired color's temperature. Also, I found a clip on deep fryer thermometer 750° F at Walmart called "King Kooker 5 inch thermometer Model # S15" distributed by Metal Fusion, Inc Jefferson, LA King Kooker Outdoor Cooking Products
The ingredient, Potassium Nitrate is Spectracide Stump Remover; the crystals are 100% and clean as I dissolved them into hot water, ran through coffee filter strainer and found no debris in 3 packages which will dissolve in a quart of boiling water; and then recrystallized by refrigerating / freezing the crystals which you then spoon out into a Pyrex rectangular (case you warm in oven to dry) and allow to air dry stirring occasionally. You really don't have to dissolve the crystals yourself as they are pure, but it really is fun DIY home chemistry. Try it with your kids because watching the crystals form and sink in the water is cool, and it happens fast as the hot water cools. Check YouTube for some videos on solubility recrystallization of potassium nitrate. As for the manganese peroxide, I believe it may either add in a more durable niter bluing surface coating or was used to reduce the boiling point of the potassium nitrate. I hope a knowledgeable chemist will respond with their expertise. Manganese peroxide can be bought in pure form on Ebay.
H.3. Nitrite Black, I am certain is the early process of "Hot Salt Boiling Bluing, the method that is now used for gun bluing today. Interestingly, one reason I believe this book to be written earlier than 1936 because it was in the early 1900s the hot salt bluing may have begun to be perfected and much later implemented therefore the rudimentary instructions.
H.4. Ignore, it was part of the page printing.
Notice the upper photo of Colt's factory and the belt drive power; and the lower picture Smith & Wesson's the American Gas Furnace Company's rotating oven has been converted to an electric drive motor mounted on the sides. Until, I came across these photos, I never realized the company's were running the number of ovens as shown. Also, the gasoline used to clean the pistol parts, I read was heated to 160° F. Can you imagine the EPA, or OSHA today. Plus, look at how those men are handling 600° F parts pulling them from the ovens and resting the reels on the stands. You can why this method was phased out eventually. Tempered carbon charcoal bluing truly allowed for a lot of variation in finishes and color of the Colt and Smith and Wesson pistols.
I hope this information especially the description of the Smith and Wesson's gun finishes which Colt's was the same process allows people to know the correct method and finishes.
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32 acp fan
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Thanks for the great history lesson. Y'all have some beautiful pistols. I got mine for cheap because someone refinished it and replaced the grips. It's not gorgeous like some of the others, but it's a fun little shooter.
The patina appears correct. Is the interior of the slide and frame same patina finish or different ? I was wondering if yours might have been rust blued on the refinish.
Tallball
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I'll get it out of the safe later today and have a look (Mrs. Tallball is napping just now). IIRC, I was told that it was all scratched up and faded before it was restored. In fact, the description said that some idiot had scratched his initials onto it (and also on the magazine, which still has them). It also said that it had been refinished by an actual gunsmith.
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