Colt Police Positive .38 Special - Worth the trouble?

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Shade00

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Hey guys, I am new to this site and fairly new to guns as a whole. I purchased a Walther P22 a few months ago, and I've been playing around with that. Then I was given a S&W Mod. 32 in .38 S&W that I have not fired yet, and I recently purchased a Mauser 1914 semi-auto .32. My dad has two great pistols that I will inherit some day - a Colt Diamondback .38 4", early production, that has seen maybe a dozen bullets through it, and an early 70s S&W .357 mag revolver in stainless that is NIB, never been fired. Anyway, I fear that gun collecting is about to become a hobby (obsession) for me. I have recently made some trips to pawn shops, and since my dad's Diamondback is such a great gun, I have looked around for a Colt revolver as more of a shooter than a collector's item.

I found two of interest - one .32 Police Positive (not sure of the SN) priced at $180; and one .38 Special Police Positive, SN 123082, priced at $150.

The guns are cosmetically in the same state, with the large part of the original bluing gone. Unfortunately I did not handle the .32 PP, but the .38 has a pretty stiff hammer - it won't cock easily.

I would like to get an older revolver and maybe have it hard chromed - I do not want to purchase a mint piece, as I want to use this for firing. However, I fear that I may be getting in over my head as I am a big-time newbie when it comes to revolvers and certainly to repairing a pistol. I read over the thread describing what one should do when shopping for revolvers. I will be stopping by the pawn shop tomorrow morning to check on the .38 and see if I can use those tips to learn anything more about it. Basically, though, is it even worth my time to look at this pistol? I am aware of the cost of re-chroming, but I do not have any idea what the cost to have it professionally worked on might be. I know that that might be difficult to ascertain with the limited information I have provided. However, I would appreciate any comments or suggestions... I am new at this and I need all the help I can get. Thanks in advance - I look forward to being a part of this forum.
 
Colt revolvers are notoriously hard and expensive to have fixed. And for $150 and the condition you described, it seems likely it would need work. Either find a Colt in better condition (mechanically), or buy a S&W to shoot.
 
I would not buy a Colt. MountainBear had it right. There seem to be less qualified gunsmiths around, too. At least if you buy old Smiths, they have a factory that will service them. I say look at Smiths.
 
My 90 yr old friend tucked a Colt Police Positive under his mattress 40 years ago and recently pulled it out to show me. Had never fired it, and it needed cleaning badly, so I volunteered.

This is the first Colt I've ever held. During the process of a complete tear down, clean, lube, reassembly, I became intrigued with the Colt's mechanics. Now I want one, and even if it needed work, for the right price, I'd take a chance on it. The gun has a smooth trigger and locks up tight.

When I returned it to the owner, he said: "Thanks, I've got something I want you to have." and gave me his Bersa Thunder .380! I think he felt his old hands would handle the revolver better than the auto. Sure made my day.

The gift of a gun is a great tradition to practice among friends and family!
 
Indeed...I just sent my brother a Beretta Tomcat and a Ruger MK II. (Lucky brother.) The Ruger had been a Father's Day gift from me to my father. I got it back after he died, and passed it along again.
 
Please don't let these guys deswade you from buying a Colt. They are habit forming. No doubt you will make some mistakes in your purchases, but the Colts are wonderful peices of history. They were made in a time when there was real craftsmanship and pride in the stuff made in the USA.

There are several good articles on how to test the timing and function of a revolver. Get familiar with these procedures and you will avoid a lot of mistakes and having repair bills.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=1430

I believe that life is too short to shoot an ugly gun, so I send them out and get them refinished if they bother me. For $200 or so, Ford's does miracles.
 
Those old Colt's are really junk. :what:

You should send the Old Fuff the particulars on where these revolvers are, so that he can protect the public (and of course little children) by snapping them up at the quoted prices... :evil:

Seriously, the lack of a fine finish in and of itself doesn't effect the way a gun shoots. What is important is the condition of the bore and chambers, and what mechanical shape the revolver's in. In the revolver sub-forum Jim March an posted an excellent check-off list for examining used revolvers, particularly Colt's. Use it to see just how good or bad off these guns are.

The Police Positive Special was made in 1915, which makes it less desireable as a shooter, but an interesting and relatively inexpensive collectable that might have some interesting history behind it. Without a serial number I comment on the little .32 Police Positive.

Do make sure the hard-rubber grips are not chipped or cracked. They can be replaced, but not inexpensively.
 
Hopefully, somebody will be along to advise if the Police Positive has the "Python type" lockwork. If so, I'd stay well clear of any "project" Colt so equipped. They were hand-fit which precludes ordinary mortals from working on them.

In my case, I couldn't even find any local gunsmiths to work on mine and that makes normally routine issues into show-stoppers that retire the thing from service as a shooter.

If it shoots OK and it has no real collector value and the appearance troubles you, I'd concur that Ford's does a good job of prettying the thing up, at least from what I've seen. However, what they do is a refinish more than a restoration. Doug Turnbull does a nice job with the latter but any connection with the concept of "bargain" will be lost if Turnbull gets involved.
 
Thanks for the great comments guys. Like I said, I am just starting out in this hobby (which I should probably quit before it gets too far...) and at present my budget is somewhat limited, so great specimens are not going to be possible for me to afford right off. I am definitely looking for this next piece to just be a shooter... I like the idea of a .38 special, which is why I'm homing in this particular guy.

I'll attempt to familiarize myself with the procedures posted. However, I am a bit scared that I'll end up buying something that cannot be repaired - although I guess there could be some value in learning, right?

There were a couple of old S&Ws at the same shop, but I'm not sure on the particulars of those. If anything interesting shows up, I'll be sure to ask. Thanks again! I would certainly appreciate any further comments.
 
Da' Fuff is back... :D

Hopefully, somebody will be along to advise if the Police Positive has the "Python type" lockwork.
Click to expand...

Both the revolvers have an exact but scaled down version of the Python's lockwork. They are closer to the Detective Special then the Python.

If either of the guns are out of time or have other mechanical problems I would advise Shade00 to pass too, but many of these revolvers were carried much and shot little, and may not have any mechanical issues.

I wouldn't go to the expense of having them refinished, but use them as they are. Active rust of course should be removed.

Both are inexpensive enough to be interesting as project guns, but not if you have to pay for the work. :eek:
 
Unfortunately I won't be able to check out the .32 for another week or so. However, I'm on my way to check out the .38 right now. I will do my best to check the timing, the bore, etc. I just hope I don't miss something.

Does the fact that they have the Python's lockwork make it basically impossible to do any work on the pistols yourself? I'm a bit confused.
 
I'd suspect there's some here that could work on the things but they're relatively few and far between compared to those comfortable with S&Ws. The Colt lockwork in question is the "dark side" of hand fitting - parts can not generally be had that "drop in".

My big deal was even finding a local card-carrying, shingle-hanging gunsmith to work on Colts of the hand-fitted variety. Finding one that says they can is easier than actually finding one that can, I learned to my immense chagrin.

The big name in the field closed his waiting list in November and it remains closed to this day. (Grant Cunningham)

If it doesn't work satisfactorily "as is / where is", I wouldn't even consider it: it's as good as it will likely ever be.

Fuff could probably resuscitate one but it's not someplace the faint of heart should be going.

...but the .38 has a pretty stiff hammer - it won't cock easily.
Click to expand...
Presumably, this could be something easy, but it's a red flag for us mere mortals. I wouldn't touch it with a ten foot pole.

OTOH, competent S&W 'smiths have proven easy to find.
 
I will keep that in mind. As I said, they have two older S&Ws which I didn't pay much attention to before - could be gems in disguise. If the old Colt is stuff from some rust, is that something I should be concerned with, or can it be cleaned up fairly easily?
 
Folks, you don't have to find a gunsmith to fix a Colt!! Go online and find the Colt site, then call or e-mail them about having the gun fixed. Colt firearms will fix, repair and make like new any Colt you have. The gunsmiths at Colt are the best in the business and do fine work.

I'd say go for the .38 Special as the 32 probably is too old and small for a daily carry.

Honestly, I'd encourage you to look for a bigger Colt such as one of the 357's that you can also fire 38's from. I have a 357 Peacekeeper that's about 22 years old, which has had a lot of rounds put through it and it's still very tight. Don't be afraid of Colt products!

BTW, I wouldn't own/carry both S &W along with a Colt. The mechanics of the two are opposite from each other.
 
If the old Colt is stuff from some rust, is that something I should be concerned with, or can it be cleaned up fairly easily?
Click to expand...

I'll defer to Fuff, Dfariswheel and others on that. I'm guessing if the hammer doesn't cock easily it could be rust, an old hornet's nest or any number of other things I couldn't easily conceive of. If it is rust it's my impression that the Colt lockwork does not suffer parts changing size gladly. If enough metal has to be removed you might see a "cascade effect" where numerous fiddly little things quit working because the part is now smaller than it needs to be. e.g. a rusted hand, sanded down, would likely throw the thing out of time.

Sending it to Colt's might be an option but I doubt it will be a cheap one. Simply shipping the thing can run 20% of the purchase price and then they'll quote you on the repair. I'd bet a donut you would be running down the "charge" side of this flowchart and you'll be disabused of any notions concerning a "cheap shooter".

There's a great deal of satisfaction to be had in buying an automobile, say a 1931 Cord for 5,000.00 for a very rough example, then spending 200,000.00 to restore it. However, if the objective is cheap transportation, there are better choices.
 
little bit of a warning to you bud!! once you get a colt you have to remember that they come with a virus that attacks the brain in humans and it makes you want more!! so get ready cuz 1 or 2 will not be enough!! enjoy!!
 
As a new shooter I would avoid colts. I learned this the hard way. I would stick with the run of the mill but great shooting S&W or Ruger. Much more forgiving and you can buy a younger gun at a good price. Also I would think about getting a .357 magnum since you can shoot .38spl or .357magnum. My Ruger GP-100 has been a great range gun or trail gun. I would avoid less popular calibers like .32 do to cost and finding the round.
 
Ok guys, finally able to post my findings. I'm in law school and I've been at the library studying for finals all day - for some bloody reason the school's network blocks access to website about guns. Great, huh?

Anyway, I checked out the pistols earlier. The Colt was pretty much exactly like I remembered it. I took a little flashlight and attempted to inspect timing etc. - to my untrained eye, the chamber lined up well with the barrel. I did not have a feeler gauge, and obviously this estimate is subject to my poor memory, but the barrel/chamber gap did not appear to be greater than that on my S&W Model 32. Also, the chambers looked pretty good, some stuff inside but none of it looked like rust. No cracks on the frame. Now, the problems:

I had commented before on how the pistol had a really stiff hammer - after exploring the pistol for a while, I discovered that the hammer is not to blame. It's the cylinder (chamber? not sure if these are interchangeable terms). With the chamber swung out, the hammer works free and easy. The action is great. However, the chamber will not spin freely like it should - you can rotate it, but it is reluctant to turn - with the chamber in place, you can't cock the hammer unless you help the chamber travel, then it cocks and locks into place fine. Does this sound like maybe an issue of rust on the ejector shaft? Maybe it needs some oil or a significant cleaning? At any rate that to me does not seem like an internal mechanical problem. Oh, one more thing, and I don't know how significant this is, but the little latch/catch that holds the chamber in place is not "springy" - in other words, it will not push back in and catch the chamber when you reseat the chamber in the frame. It will still successfully close and keep the chamber in place, but you have to do it manually.

They also had two Smith & Wessons. One was marked 1901 on the tag. It was an old nickel revolver with most of the nickel missing. Action seemed to work great, chamber was pretty free, but if you swung the chamber all the way out it would sort of stick and not want to go back in. It had "S&W Special & U.S. Service Ctgs." on one side of the barrel. The serial number was 67xxx. Price was $150.

The other S&W was another old revolver that I could not get a model number off of. I think Rev. 10 was written on the tag. I don't have the SN on me as I lost the card that I had written its information on. That particular gun's action was not free and happy though.

So, that's that. I am curious to hear if you guys think the Colt's problems are manageable, or if it's going to be too much for this newbie. Also, if rust is the problem behind the chamber not rotating well, what's the best solution? Thanks guys!
 
As to ammo and age, if you stick to normal 38 specials, no +Ps, you will be fine, since back "in the day" their 38 specials were a lot hotter than now (but the steel wasn't as good).

As far as the sticky cylinder, sounds to me like just a good cleaning and oiling might do a lot for you. Next time you go out there to look at it, take a small bottle of gun oil and lightly lubricate the cylinder pivot and shaft and the extractor shaft. See if that helps.
Often old unused guns will get some rust in the nooks and crannies.

I have a 1917 Colt 38 Special that was a bit rough at first but cleaned up to a very nice shooter.

As to the cylinder catch not springing, there is a tiny spring that goes behind the catch that can fall out if you remove the side plate and don't take care to keep the cylinder catch in place. This spring is replaceable pretty easily.

While it is hard to turn the cylinder now, the way to check a Colt is to cock the hammer, then, hold the hammer back with your thumb and gently pull the trigger, let the hammer fall down gently and keep the trigger back. The cylinder should slightly rotate and get very solid and not turn at all as the secondary notch on the timing engages. This is Colt's bank-vault lockup.
 
You certainly want to check the lockup on the Colt. See if the screw heads for the receiver have any fine scratches around them which indicate that the screws have been removed. If so, the spring for the cylinder release may have flown away.

As for the cylinder rotation, remember that a Colts' cylinder spins clockwise, which is opposite of a SW. Pull the hammer back to about half way and the cylinder should spin freely. If it doesn't, then see if the 'catch' at the bottom of the reciever is already up and holding the cylinder. The hammer and that little catch work together and Colts can go 'out of tune', meaning that the gun doesn't lock up and release as it should. The fix can only be done by a master gunsmith who knows Colts. My local smith does a inspect/tune and check for $189, to give you some idea of the price.
 
Pass. Don’t make the mistake I did.

I would pass on it. Check out http://www.coltforum.com/ for much good info on colts. They are very different than S&W and require slightly different method of checking lock-up and timing. Note that you just checked cylinder alignment not lock-up or timing. In general colts are great guns but abused cheap colt is not a good beginners gun. I am graduate student so my budget is small but a used Ruger revolver or if you check them out well a Taurus revolver are better starter revolver. The Taurus has the advantage of lifetime warranty and the 2 that I have bought used have work great for me. Lastly avoid heavily abused revolvers specially colts because believe me you can't really do the repair yourself and to get done right will cost more than the gun. Save another 100 buck and look into a used but good shape S&W, Ruger or Taurus.
 
loneviking: I believe I remember the catch working properly along with the hammer. I was inspecting it very closely when I was trying to figure out why the cylinder wasn't turning, and I believe I noticed specifically that it was operating when I was operating the hammer. I'll check that again, and I'll definitely check for evidence that someone has been inside the pistol before.

baker: I am looking at the link, specifically Grant Cunningham's advice, but not completely sure I understand - the first problem is I don't know which part the sear is.

I will try to go by there and see if oiling the shaft will free up the cylinder - then I guess I can properly check the timing. As far as I remember the catch would lock the cylinder in when I would help the cylinder turn as I was cocking the hammer. (I did not have to turn the cylinder completely - I could initially cock the hammer about 1/4, then the cylinder would stop and I would have to give it a little turn to make it continue.)

This is all great information. I'll do my best to stop by tomorrow and get another look at her - I appreciate all viewpoints here, but I am not giving up on it just yet. Thanks guys.
 
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