Colt SAA .38 Special black powder frame.

[dave snowden]

I read the info posted aboutColt SAA in .38 special. I can't find answers to my pistol's mfg.date. It is a 5 1/2" black powder SAA, serial #289_ _.
It has Colt Single Action Army .38 Special on the left side of the barrel and COLT'S PT.F.A.MFG.Co.HARTFORD CT.U.S.A. on the top of the barrel. The serial number appears on the frame in front of the trigger guard and on the frame that holds the trigger guard and again below the screw on the butt. Colt patent info is on left side of frame. The number on the loading gate doesn't match. It is 2478. I'm guessing after reading the forum written by folks in the know, that this pistol was redone at some point early on. I welcome help.
Thanks. Dave

 

[Jim Watson]

Do you mean the serial number is in the 28900 range without S A prefix or suffix and front screw (black powder) base pin retainer?

That gun was made in 1876 and is therefore definitely a rebarrel - recylinder job. Not uncommon. For $100 Colt will send you an archive letter saying what it was originally. Not worth it to me.

I think the number on the gate is a fitting number as S&W uses and is not related to the gun serial number. It is likely repeated somewhere out of sight on the frame.

 

[toiville2feathers]

According to the serial # the gun was built in 1876. I am not totally sure but the 38 special didn't appear until after the after the Spanish - American war. The 38 cal. Cartridge of that era was a 38 Long Colt. This was a cartridge used by the troops in the Philipines and was a weak cartridge and was not the man stopper that the 45 Long colt was. To my knowledge the 38 cal cartridges were a 38 short colt, 38 colt NewPolice and the 38 Long Colt. The Chambers for those 3 are a different diameter than the 38 special cartridge chamber. Bullets are also different.
I believe the 38 special came out in the 1900's. It may have been sent back to the colt factory for a upgrade to 38special.

 

[RON in PA]

. 38 special was introduced in1899 and is a lengthed .38 long Colt.

 

[JT-AR-MG42]

Photos might help to tell if the cylinder/barrel work had been done using 1st or 2nd generation parts Dave.

If done by Colt, there would be a good chance of the cylinder being numbered to the frame as well.
That is something you can check.
Also look for a 'Rampant Colt' logo stamp on the rear face of the cylinder as well.

Who knows if (and when?) the factory would have set the gun up for a smokeless load using a BP frame though.
A factory letter MIGHT show the work order if done at Colt. No guarantees however.

JT

 

[Old Fuff]

The tip-off is the "Hartford" barrel marking.

Following World War Two, Colt decided to discontinue the Single Action Army, and didn't change their mind and reintroduce it until 1956. However they did make cylinders and barrels chambered in .38 Special and .45 Colt and used them to renovate customers older revolvers. The .38 Special option was favored by some as best for black power era frames.

The barrels were marked with the Hartford address, that was dropped in 1956.

The gate number was as some have suggested, an assembly number. If you remove the trigger guard and backstrap you will find it stamped on the back or bottom of the frame.

During this time period if factory refinishing was specified they used a color case hardening process that was unique, with the exception of some late model 1908 Vest Pocket pistol grip safeties and triggers. It was dropped in 1956 because it involved the use of highly lethal cyanide.

Besides the factory, many gunsmiths also rebuilt S.A. revolvers using currently available barrels and cylinders, but factory rebuilds that include refinishing sometimes are worth a small premium.

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy

Although the 38 Special cartridge was developed for the Smith & Wesson Model 1899 revolver, Colt did not chamber it in the Single Action Army until 1930. So a frame made in 1876 (I concur that this gun was originally manufactured in 1876 if the SN is 289XX) would have to have been retrofitted with a 38 Special barrel and cylinder.

38 Special was a very rare chambering for the 1st Generation, only 27 were ever made in that chambering. But don't get your hopes up because this one is obviously a rework.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

To my knowledge the 38 cal cartridges were a 38 short colt, 38 colt NewPolice and the 38 Long Colt. The Chambers for those 3 are a different diameter than the 38 special cartridge chamber

Those cartridges can all be shot in a standard .38 Special or .357 chamber.

 

[Jim K]

Nope, the .38 Colt New Police is the same as the .38 S&W, shorter and larger diameter than the .38 Special; it won't fit most revolvers chambered for .38 Special or .38 Long/Short Colt.

FWIW, an original pre-WWII SAA or Bisley in .38 Special would be fairly rare; there were only 89 made in that caliber.

I once owned a SAA in .38 Special; it had originally been in .32-20. Numrich at that time was selling .38 Special barrels and cylinders for, IIRC, $29. The gun didn't shoot well, and I traded it even up for an M1 rifle, lend-lease returned from Britain.

Jim

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Originally posted by Jim K

Nope, the .38 Colt New Police is the same as the .38 S&W, shorter and larger diameter than the .38 Special; it won't fit most revolvers chambered for .38 Special or .38 Long/Short Colt.

I stand corrected. The .38 Short Colt, .38 Long Colt (both names Colt never used), the .38 Special and the .357 Magnum are all upward compatible.

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

FWIW, an original pre-WWII SAA or Bisley in .38 Special would be fairly rare; there were only 89 made in that caliber.

We are obviously quoting different sources. My Kuhnhuasen book says 25 standard 1st Gen SAAs and 2 Bisleys were chambered for 38 Special for a total of only 27.

Kuhnhausen also says that there were 89 SAAs chambered for 38 Colt Special, which I am pretty sure is the same as 38 S&W Special, they just didn't want to use the S&W name on their guns.

 

[Jim K]

Yep, some confusion there plus my error. I used Brown's 36 Calibers. and the .38 Colt Special figure of 89, overlooking the .38 S&W Special figure of 27. So a total of 116 for standard and Bisley models. But he lists the flat tops in separate lists; the lists are confusing and don't seem to add up. According to the drawings, though, the marking for both was ".38 Special" with neither Colt or S&W put on the gun.

I don't know why the distinction was made. I suspect the ones made in .38 S&W Special were special order, and that is what the customer order specified so that was what was put in the book.

There is also a listing for .38-44 S&W Gallery, which was the old target round of .38 S&W diameter with the bullet seated down in the case, not the later .38-44, which was a souped up .38 Special.

Jim

 

[toiville2feathers]

Was there not a few colt Bisleys made in 38 long colt. Some where I saw that
Info but I can't remember where. If I am wrong please correct me.

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

Was there not a few colt Bisleys made in 38 long colt. Some where I saw that
Info but I can't remember where. If I am wrong please correct me.

Howdy Again

According to Kuhnhausen, there were 2,376 standard Single Action Armies chambered for 38 Colt, 122 Target Models, 412 Bisleys, and 96 Bisley Target Models.

 

[Jim Watson]

Once upon a time, before Algore invented the internet, if you looked in the catalog, you would find that a Colt Official Police .38 Special would shoot
".38 Short Colt, .38 Long Colt, .38 Colt Special, .38 S&W Special (full and midrange loads), .38 Colt Special High Speed, .38 S&W Special High Speed, and .38-44 S&W Special cartridges."

A S&W Military & Police .38 was "rated for"
.38 S&W Special black, semi-smokeless or smokeless with lead bullet.
.38 S&W Special smokeless with full metal patched or metal pointed (lead on rifling), midrange (wad cutter or sharp shoulder) or the 150 grain 50 yard target load.
The .38 Special Colt and the .38 Long and Short Colt cartridges may also be used, as well as .38 Special Super Police cartridge with 200 grain bullet."

1939 Stoegers.

Nowadays, you just post on the internet and wait for somebody to come along and tell you.

 

[Jim K]

"...38 S&W Special High Speed, and .38-44 S&W Special cartridges."

And THAT .38-44 was the later .38-44, which is a hot .38 Special, not the original .38-44 S&W.

Jim

 

[BSA1]

Am I the only one that is questioning whether it is safe to shoot this gun? The frame was made 140 years ago of unknown steel and manufacturing methods let alone what it has been subjected to over the years.

 

[yugorpk]

The steel didnt turn into something else . Personally I wouldnt even limit it to black powder. Standard .38 special, like its probably been shooting for 75 years, would work just fine. There was nothing wrong with the ductile iron ( low grade steel ) they used in the 1870's for Colt frames. It does not turn into something ese over time or degrade. It is what it is. If the lockwork is good and the cylinder lines up with the barrel I'd pick up a box of wadcutters and start blazing away.

 

[Old Fuff]

It seems that one of the pre-war .38 Specials were sold at auction today. If you look quick you can see it.

https://www.proxibid.com/aspr/Rare-...-Revolver/29038511/LotDetail.asp?lid=29038511

 

[Vern Humphrey]

First of all, it's a relatively new cylinder, and hence of stronger metal than the original cylinder. Second, standard .38 Special pressures are pretty close to standard .45 Colt pressures -- 16K CUP versus 14CUP. Given that the smaller .38 Special chamber, and the resultant thicker chamber walls, especially over the bolt stop notch, this gun is quite safe with .38 Special.

 

[Old Fuff]

As I previously mentioned, after World War Two, Colt converted a fair number of black power era Single Action's to .38 Special. They recommended this over the other option which was .45 Colt. The .38 had thicker chamber walls, and if a catastrophic failure was to occur the cylinder had to go first. Incidentally, all Colt conversions done at the factory were smokeless powder proofed.

Of course if some handloader substituted Bullseye powder for Unique or 2400 all bets were off.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Oh, you can load .38 Specials with Bullseye without exceeding SAAMI standards. My favorite load in my .357 2nd Generation SAA is 2.7 grains of Bullseye behind a 148 grain hollowbase wadcutter.

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

Am I the only one that is questioning whether it is safe to shoot this gun? The frame was made 140 years ago of unknown steel and manufacturing methods let alone what it has been subjected to over the years.

As has been previously alluded to, it is the cylinder, not the frame that must contain the pressure of the cartridge firing. I here the same opinion all the time when shooters talk about putting cartridge conversion cylinders into Cap & Ball revolvers that are marked 'BLACK POWDER ONLY' on the barrel. Again, it is the cylinder that withstands the pressure of the cartridge firing, not the frame.

Frames and cylinders of the SAA were made of malleable iron, up though approximately SN 96,000 about midway through 1883. So the revolver in question definitely has a frame made of iron, not steel. But all the frame does is support the cylinder, it does not see the pressure of the cartridge firing. True, the frame does need to withstand the battering of the cartridge head from recoil, but that is very different from having the tensile strength to contain pressure. Substituting a 38 Special cylinder, which would have been made no earlier than 1930, and of stronger steel than the original cylinder, should easily be able to contain the pressure of SAAMI Max 38 Special ammunition.

 

[BSA1]

Am I the only one that is questioning whether it is safe to shoot this gun?

Well the answer is I am the only one.

The steel didnt turn into something else

All steel is not made of the same minerals and mixture. Do you think steel made today is as good as what was made in the 1940's or in China today?

As has been previously alluded to, it is the cylinder, not the frame that must contain the pressure of the cartridge firing.

Frames can stretch over time after firing enough strong factory loads for example +P in alloy frame guns. It was not uncommon for K-Frame revolvers chambered in 357 magnum for the frames to stretch.

Anyway I am the only person here who will give the 140 year old gun a honorable retirement.

 

[Old Fuff]

Were this revolver in it's original condition and chambering I'd agree with you. But by this time the 1946-1956 .38 Special conversions done on pre-1900 Colt Single Actions have had time to develop problems, and they would have been widely publicized if this was what had happened.

Such has not been the case, but it is somewhat hard to find instances where later-day cylinders and barrels are available (and affordable) for pre-World War One revolvers, and those made even earlier - say 1898.

Depending on what it is, for those that can't be updated, retirement is probably the better way to go. They are often tangible links to our past national or family history and should be preserved.