Colt SAA numbers

[Jim K]

I watched a popular TV show about a pawn shop the other night. Someone brought in an antique Colt single action. The expert they called in to appraise it noted that all the numbers matched except the one on the loading gate and told them that the gate often broke and had to be replaced. He stated that the mismatched gate reduced the value of the gun.

For those who don't know, the number on the loading gate of an SAA is an assembly number; if it matches the serial, it would be pure coincidence. The matching frame number is on the bottom of the frame where it is covered by the trigger guard/front strap.

The reason for that number is that getting a neat fit for the loading gate is tough, so Colt polished the frame and gate down together before case hardening. They used an assembly number to be sure the fitted parts got back together after finishing. The actual serial numbers would be applied later.

So now you know that the experts on that show don't know everything.

Jim

 

[rcmodel]

I noticed that too.

But it wasn't the first time that 'expert' and I didn't quite agree on some minor details he pointed out on something.

rc

 

[burrhead]

I've done several small, contract jobs in the film industry over the years. Nothing on TV is real. I would expect many of the "experts" on that show are actors playing a role. Certainly not all of them, but the production company's main goal (after making MONEY) is to entertain, not to inform.

 

[tark]

I've watched the same episode on the same show, with the same reaction as yourself. Every post under yours hit the nail right on the head, that whole show is a made for TV entertainment production.

 

[eastbank]

wow, i must have a rare colt 38-40 bisley as the numbers match. eastbank.

 

[Jim K]

What is the number on the frame below the loading gate? Yes, coincidences do happen, as I noted.

Jim

 

[Ron James]

But the best one of all, I believe it was on Law and Order, one of the detectives was handed a bullet and he stated, " hmmm, .32 caliber, came from a Ruger ".:banghead:

 

[Arkansas Paul]

The difference is that everyone knows that Law and Order is fictional.
The pawn shop show is supposedly "reality" tv. The expert on the show is supposedly providing accurate information.

 

[StrawHat]

The difference is that everyone knows that Law and Order is fictional.
The pawn shop show is supposedly "reality" tv. The expert on the show is supposedly providing accurate information.

Yes, but it is still "TV" and as such has an agenda.

 

[Jim K]

I recall the detective on (I think) CSI Miami who stood in the doorway of a room, looked at the corpse 15 feet away, and said, "He was shot with a 9mm Glock." Now I have been an FI guy, and I can't do that. Just dumb, I guess.

Jim

 

[Old Fuff]

Easy answer....

It had to be a Glock because he counted 17 holes in the body.

 

[Jim K]

FWIW, the Clark County Museum is real, and Mark Hall-Patton really is its director. I have no real reason to doubt that the other experts they call in really exist and are really experts.

But I have no doubt that they are given a lot more time for research than the program shows. I have done a fair amount of research in various areas, and I don't buy that even an authority on the Civil War could have the whole record of an obscure military unit and its commander in his memory.

Of course even experts can be wrong, and we do not see the real knowledge that lies behind some of the seemingly quick replies on the show.

On a personal note, I have often been chided for looking at a gun or a picture of a gun and saying "It is a reblue", or "It is a fake." People just don't believe that a single glance can be enough to be sure of such things, but it often is. What is sometimes hard is answering the question, "How do you know?" My response is usually, "I just do."

Jim

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy

Mark Hall-Patton may be the real thing, but the guy they often bring in to judge old guns is a clown. I stopped watching that program when he lowered the hammer of an old Colt from half cock. Loading gates broke often? First time I heard that one. I'm looking at my 1st Gen Bisley right now, the number on the gate does not match the SN because it is an assembly number.

And what pawn shop brings in an expert to evaluate something and allows the seller to hear how much it is worth? That would totally undermine the shop's bargaining position.

 

[eastbank]

tv show, plain and simple. its to get the nitwits to watch. just entertainment. eastbank

 

[savit260]

I stopped watching that program when he lowered the hammer of an old Colt from half cock

That would get a serious verbal scolding, if not a smack in the head from me had that had been one of my guns.

Anyone familiar with Colt actions should know never to do that.

 

[CajunBass]

And what pawn shop brings in an expert to evaluate something and allows the seller to hear how much it is worth? That would totally undermine the shop's bargaining position.

None, but that's where the "history" part of the show comes in. Bring in someone in to talk about the background of the item. That's what makes it entertaining.

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

But what makes it unbelievable is they do that in front of the seller. No one who wants to make a profit would let the seller in on what an expert has to say. No matter what business they're in.

 

[AlexanderA]

Wouldn't an "assembly number" (independent of the serial number) be stamped on at least two parts, so that they would match up? It would make no sense to put an assembly number on one part alone. Maybe what they meant was that the assembly number on the loading gate didn't match the assembly number on the frame, indicating that the loading gate was a replacement.

 

[CajunBass]

But what makes it unbelievable is they do that in front of the seller. No one who wants to make a profit would let the seller in on what an expert has to say. No matter what business they're in.

What maked it believable is that they quickly establish there is a difference between what the "expert" says it's worth, and what they'll pay for it. Like anything else, it's only "worth" what someone will actually give for it. We see it here all the time. "I took my XXXXX in and the dealer would only offer me (blank) for it, and I know it's worth (Blank 1).

Now, I do question the numbers that get thrown around on that show, but (1) it's TV, and (2) it's Vegas.

 

[Old Fuff]

Wouldn't an "assembly number" (independent of the serial number) be stamped on at least two parts, so that they would match up? It would make no sense to put an assembly number on one part alone.

Yup, you're right, and in this case the number stamped on the gate was duplicated on the back of the frame where it's usually covered by the front of the stocks. In the case of 2-piece stocks you can sometimes see the number after removing them. Otherwise you need to remove the stocks and backstrap as a unit. Rarely you will find the number under the trigger guard, but for what should be obvious reasons both the frame and gate were stamped.

Examples are known where the assembly number matches part of the serial number, but it's believed by most authorities that is (was) coincidental.

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

Wouldn't an "assembly number" (independent of the serial number) be stamped on at least two parts, so that they would match up? It would make no sense to put an assembly number on one part alone. Maybe what they meant was that the assembly number on the loading gate didn't match the assembly number on the frame, indicating that the loading gate was a replacement.

At first glance, your statement does make sense. Traditionally most revolvers went through several assembly steps. With Smith and Wesson, initial assembly included hand fitting some of the parts together by highly skilled assemblers. This was called soft fitting because the parts had not yet been hardened. At this stage, parts may have been stamped with assembly numbers before sending them to another department for hardening, or other processing. Once the parts had been hardened, they could be reassembled to the proper gun for any final fitting, known as hard fitting.

Smith and Wesson sometimes stamped assembly numbers on the frame and crane of their revolvers so the hardened parts could be reunited, like this:



I have other Smiths that do not have assembly numbers on the frame. The simple fact is, ledgers were kept, detailing which parts, numbered or not, went to which gun. There are lots of numbers and letters stamped on the frame of many Smiths, and without the old ledgers, we can only guess at which are assembly numbers and which are inspector's stamps.



Here are photos of the loading gates, with assy numbers, on my 1st Gen 38-40 Bisley, and my two 2nd Gen 45 Colt SAAs.








These assembly numbers bear no relationship at all to the Serial Numbers of the revolvers the gates are installed in. Furthermore, there are no other assembly numbers of any type anywhere on these Colts, not on the outside, and not on the inside, at least not the last time I looked. Even if there were assembly numbers on an inside surface of the frames, the 'expert' on this show would not have the slightest idea of how to take apart a Colt to find it.

The assembly numbers were simply recorded in a ledger, so the parts could be reunited with the proper frame after the frame and gate had been contoured together.

The Germans did put SNs on all of the parts of some Lugers, but they were fanatics about keeping records. Stamping numbers on parts takes time and costs money, keeping ledgers was simpler.



*****************


Shoot, I hate it when Old Fuff makes me look like a dope!

Just checked the two 2nd Gens, and sure enough, the assembly numbers on the frame are right where he said. Couldn't see one on the Bisley, I'll have to check further next time I take it apart.

So I am just a bit less of a dope than the 'expert' on the pawn show, because at least I knew they were assembly numbers.

 

[eastbank]

my first gen bisley has no other numbers on the whole gun, i don,t know what the odds are that would make all the numbers match, i guess a loading gate with the number 770 could happen once every thousand made. to have the loading gate installed on a gun with the same last three digits of the guns finished serial has to be very high odds. eastbank.

 

[Jim K]

The position of the frame number varies. Some are beside the hole for the gate screw, but I have a .44-40 with a gate/frame number of 450. On the frame, the number is forward, at the end of the cut for the trigger/sear spring, with the 4 on the left side (as viewed with the frame upside down) and the 50 on the right,

(The serial number is 151068.)

Hi, Driftwood,

I understand the early postwar guns had the same numbering system as the pre-war ones. Later, around the SxxxxxA range, they began to number the gate at the root to match the last three of the serial number, and still later seemed to have dropped the whole assembly number business.

But I would be very surprised if there are no frame numbers on pre-war (First Generation) guns, as I have never seen one without them.

Jim

 

[Jim K]

On the numbering of parts for Lugers (and other German military weapons), that was a carryover from the days when literally every part was hand fitted. That really was not necessary by the time the Luger was adopted, and certainly was not necessary by WWII, when Germany had the best precision machinery in the world. But that system had been enshrined in military regulations (near-sacred in militaristic Germany) and effectively could not be changed. So every part was numbered, and received an inspection stamp, at a huge cost in time and human resources.

(The U.S. was not immune to such silliness; Congress once decreed that every Navy contract had to specify that no foreign hemp was to be used in its fulfillment, and that was carried over to the DoD. The reason was long forgotten, but our software contracts had to specify that foreign hemp was not to be used in construction; it didn't say anything about the programmers smoking hemp, though, and some reportedly did.)

Jim