Combat Masterpiece of S&W 60 (trading my 9mm SP101)

[MatthewVanitas]

Though I realize that I'm ungrateful for my good luck in finding such a revolver, I'm planning on trading my 9mm SP101. It's a great piece, but I find Ruger DAs clunky in my paw, and I don't have much use for a snub-nose. Plus I flinch like a 12 year old girl when firing DA (although the 12 year old girl shooting next to me at the range was shooting great groups, despite the fact that a Muzzelite bullpup 10/22 has the worst trigger known to mankind). I fire 1911 fine, fire T/C Contender in .45 Colt fine, but Ruger DA slays me.

In any case. I find S&W revos much more graceful to my hand, and am kind of inclined to get a dedicated .38 Special. Purpose would be plinking/kit gun, and eventual home defense.

I'm looking for one with a longer barrel (3-4"). The longer sight radius, better trigger pull, and more practice on my part should solve my horrendous revo accuracy, one hopes.

I'm torn between the Combat Masterpiece (mdl 15 or 67) and the Model 60 Chief's Special (version w/ 3" bbl and adjustable sights). I believe the CM is a K frame, know the 60 is a J. I realize they're made for different uses, but for mine (plinking, HD), I see them as being pretty similar, just the 60 has one less round, one inch less of barrel, and more compact. Otherwise, same cartridge, same make, same sights, etc. I realize some 60s are .357, but I have little desire to shoot such in a 3" J frame.

Would greatly appreciate tips from anyone owning either of these firearms. I'll probably put my 9mm SP101 up on the sale board when I go back to Seattle in Christmas '04. Thanks for any tips --MV

 

[Gordon]

Matthew in reviewing your DA/target poblems you are gonna have same (bad)experience with the Model 60 Target. My wife and other women shot ALOT of my large collection of Colt and Smiths and the Favorite .38's were : Diamond back 4" Colt (about $500-600) and 6" S&W k-38 (or the same in Model 19 which is a more versatile gun) . My favorite .38 is the Model 15 4" , but I have almost 50 years of pistol shooting experience!.

 

[Old Fuff]

The S&W .38 Combat Masterpiece (model 15) is based on the .38 Target Masterpiece (model 14) and as such has such features as adjustable sights, wide-spur hammer (and sometimes trigger) and a particularly smooth action. Given this, I suspect it would better meet your requirements then a Chief Special (model 36) which holds 5 rather then 6 cartridges, and is usually found with a 1 7/8†barrel, although some were made with 3†ones. The “36†also has fixed sights, although again some were made with the adjustable kind. The smaller “J†frame Smith’s have coil mainsprings and the double-action is roughly comparable to Ruger’s SP-101.

Last but not least, model 15’s are often found on the used market in excellent condition for prices around $200.00 or slightly higher. Others that are “like new†in the original box with papers and accessories command prices under $350.00. They are I believe, as good a .38 Special service/target revolver as can be found.

 

[November]

Matthew,
does your 9mm sp101 have a 2" or 3" barrel? I've been trying to find one, or to possibly trade my S&W model 65 3" round-butt for one. I like the idea of a 9mm revolver and I have always liked the sp101 platform. I recently installed a Crimson Trace laser grip on the 65, but haven't had a chance to try it at the range. Maybe a trade is possible?

 

[HSMITH]

Matthew, the S&W guns are smoother and easier to shoot in DA but not by a quantum leap, I just don't want you to pick one up and be dissapointed with it.

The S&W's do feel better in my hand as well. I never did get used to the stacking of the coil springs in the Rugers, I have had a pile of them too. All were hell-for-stout, well put together and accurate as can be. I just never really liked them.

I have 4 K-frame S&W handguns, one N-frame and one J-frame. Trigger reach is essentially identical. Action weight and smoothness are essentially identical. The real difference is weight, but a K-frame 38 M15 feels like it is every bit as light as a M60 J-frame 357. A K-frame 357 feels like it is heavier than both of the prior by a good bit, and the N-frames ARE heavy. Shooting 38's through a 15 and a 60 is hard to tell which is in your hand unless you look.

I am a die hard double action guy, I just LOVE pounding paper rapid fire double action, and of all the guns I shoot and all the guns I own the real sweetheart of the mix is my pre model 15 K38 Combat Masterpiece from 1949. IT is what a DA fighting handgun should be, there are pics of it HERE . My Model 19 is close, very close, but not quite there. Hands down the M19 is THE king of combat revolvers though, I suppose the M66 could be included as the co-king if you like crow bait I mean stainless guns....

I would advise you to look for a Model 15 or a 19, and tell you that the 19 makes more sense since it will handle the 357 too. You never know what the future holds, you can buy one now that will do it all in a M19 or buy a M15 and possibly regret it in the future. My pre-15 is my favorite but you can bet it is not what I reach for on certain occasions.

If I were you I would look for a M19 or 66 if you swing that direction. If you run onto a deal on a 15 or a 60 then go for it, but in my opinion if you only have one I think you should have the one that will do it "all" instead of the one that will do almost "all" of it.

The Model 13/19/65/66 should be a mandatory revolver for ANY collection of more than one gun

 

[MatthewVanitas]

I believe Ruger calls it the "1 7/8" barrel, so a 2-inch.

November: I was really hoping for adjustable sights and 4" bbl, so the 65 isn't quite what I'm looking for. Good luck though.

I realize that DA practice is going to be key, no matter what DA I trade for. Although at a certain point I just might have to admit that I'm not a DA revolver guy. I don't want to sound defeatist about it, but I have a considerably easier time with 1911 and 22/45. Or am I just spoiled on an SA trigger?

Old Fluff: is it a question of coil vs. leaf mainsprings? Any good tech articles out there on the subject? I was unaware of the issue in terms of trigger-pull.

Thanks for all the advice thus far.

 

[Gordon]

When you get the idea of DA pull , you just might find it giving you better centered tighter groups than SA. I know it does for me after I shot PPC for 10 years or so.

 

[461]

I'd be real interested in that 9mm SP-101 if you could put a dollar value on it for me, I've been looking for one for years. Send me an email if you're interested.

 

[tomthel]

I tend to think you might want a K frame (Models 14, 15, 19, 66). The .357 models (19,66) as mentioned above allow for some growth. As to size this depends on the size of your hand a fingers. I would pick up a few K's at gun stores and try them on for fit with various grips if possible. The Ruger SP has a 2.25" bbl. so going to a 3" won't improve sight radius much. The target sights should be more visible, though.

As to the Model 60, being it has a coil mainspring like the Ruger, I don't think it will be much different. In fact a gunsmith of S&W's stated as much. The larger S&W's have leaf mainsprings.

A 4" bbl. will give you a bit more sight radius than an 3" and perhaps a bit less muzzle blast. A .38 is also loaded to a lot less pressure than a 9mm. That being said one still has to master the double action. It can be done. Another factor is weight. The J frame 3" probably will come in at 24 oz. or so whereas the K frame 15/67 at 33-34 oz and the 19/66 at 36 oz. The weight
should give you a steadier hold.

 

[Old Fuff]

MatthewVanitas:

Leaf vs. coil mainsprings: Yes, there is an important difference, at least in S&W revolvers. The leaf spring levers the hammer in such a way that causes the tension (weight) to drop slightly during the last third of the hammer’s travel. In a coil spring action the pull increases throughout the hammer’s backward travel until it’s released.

In addition, in the S&W design the little lever in the hammer’s face (S&W calls this part a “sear,†while Ruger calls it a “dogâ€) only lifts the hammer through part of its stroke and then the trigger itself lifts it the rest of the way in a manner that the trigger has more mechanical advantage – which makes the trigger pull feel lighter. In other makes of revolvers, including Ruger’s the trigger pushes on the “dog†until the trigger moves far enough through its arc to release the hammer. Thus they don’t have that little extra leverage that Smith & Wesson’s do.

The lockwork in the model 15 (as well as all other K – L - & N frame) S&W revolvers is directly descended from the pre-World War II 1905 Hand Ejector/Military & Police guns that featured what was called a “long action,†and were reputed to be the finest double-action revolvers ever made.

Following World War II, S&W introduced what they called the “K-38 Target Masterpiece." During those better days guns had names rather then numbers. The “Masterpiece†series incorporated the best and most popular innovations of the time, including an adjustable rear sight, ribbed barrel, grooved back and front gripstraps, wide-spur hammer (and later a wide trigger) and of course extra care during assembly. In those days the bullseye target market was important, Colt generally dominated it, and Smith & Wesson wanted to carve out a bigger piece of the action.

It wasn’t long before lawmen, particularly FBI agents started buying Target Masterpiece revolvers and sending them back to the company to have the barrel shortened to 4 inches, and a Baughman quick-draw front sight mounted in place of the target one. These custom modifications became so popular that S&W introduced the gun as a regular production model and called it the “Combat Masterpiece,†which was advertised as a “target grade holster gun.†Given your description of what you want, I think the model 15 fits the bill exactly.

When I was a youngster (way back in the dark ages) following the Second World War, I purchased my first Combat Masterpiece shortly after they were introduced – it was the first revolver I owned that I bought with my own money. I have gone through a dozen more over the years – the last one was purchased in December and I’m waiting for it to be delivered to my receiving dealer any day now. I have never been disappointed.

 

[KFD147]

For those that are looking for a 9mm revolver. Try this link.http://www.auctionarms.com/search/displayitem.cfm?itemnum=5407232
I already have one or I would have snatched it up.


Jason

 

[Paul "Fitz" Jones]

I love my S&W 60 and 66

As a Deputy Marshal I wore a S&W .38 6 inch barrel Masterpiece revolver in the 60's I still have it plus a new unfired one. I think they are the most beautiful revolver design. I also carried a model 60 as my inside belt civvies weapon and when wearing a suit I carried a Colt Gold Cup in later years.

The Smiths are excellent weapons and So are Colts which are like comparing apples and oranges. As the owner of the Fitz Pistol Grip Co I made and sold thousands of grips for many pistols. I feel the Smith is the most beautiful but there is a beauty to a Python or a Colt Officers Model also.

I shocked Ted Lane a rangemaster and gun writer when in a hurry at his police range one day I fired the police three target course normally slow timed and silhouette but was surprised that Ted had three bulls up. So I fired the whole course rapid fire. Ted asked me on the loudspeaker what the heck am I doing, I responded just getting the course over with and kept shooting, he then asked what the heck are you shooting?. I told him and finished the course. He came out of his office and said lets see the pistol and walked to the targets with me to show me that I had fired distinguished expert with a 2 inch model 60 rapid fire and had set a record on his course. I finished the two other legs to get the Marshal's DX badge wgich I have worn on my shooting hat since. I have a pic of the hat that has a story, the badge and the pistol with my grips on it that I post when anyone ever doubts the accuracy of a model 60.. I am on my lap top away from home so don't have the pic at the moment.

The 60 takes up the least space as a hideout weapon, is rustproof,is the best quality available but the Smith original grip leaves a lot to be desired on "J" frames that put me in a successful business.

 

[Gordon]

What a world class story!! Thank you for sharing!

 

[Harbinger]

Great story, Fitz!
Would love to see the pic when you get a chance.

 

[Paladin7]

Thats no bull.....Fitz is correct about the accuracy of the Model 60....