Commercial ammunition in HK roller-locks/clones?

[MTMilitiaman]

I am getting conflicting information on whether it is safe to shoot softer commercial ammunition in HK-style roller-locking rifles such as the HK91 and clones like the JLD PTR-91. Some say they have done it and never had a problem. Others say it is just a matter of time before the violence of the mechanism leads to head separation and recommends only using stronger mil-spec brass. Given the difficulty in obtaining mil-surp ammunition or quality LC/IMI brass these days, I would think this would be a major consideration for a potential buyer.

So if you have one of these rifles, is it safe to buy a case of American Eagle or S&B FMJs, or something else cheap, if it has commercial brass? Or are all those PTR-91 owners really scouring the earth for mil-surp so they can shoot their rifles?

 

[MGshaggy]

As far as commercial ammo goes, I haven't run any through my PTR's but I've run Federal through my (Greek) SAR3/8's and HK51 with zero problems. I've even run steel cased Wolf (gasp!) through them with no problems.

 

[rbernie]

I run Winchester and R-P brass thru my CETMEs all the time. I handload, and I *do* make sure that I load the ammo to 7.62x51 specs, and not 308. In other words, they're somewhat light 308 loads designed to duplicate M80 NATO 7.62x51 pressures. I would expect that commericial FMJ ammo will largely duplicate the milsurp pressure specs.

I also use Wolf in my CETMEs with good success.

 

[cmidkiff]

I've shot Winchester factory .308 in my PTR91, probably a hundred rounds or so, without issue. I've also fed it a bunch of Wolf steel... the old lacquer coated stuff makes the chamber all gunky, and I won't be using it anymore. Nearly impossible to get clean. The newer poly stuff seems much better. Silver Bear (zinc plated) seems to function best, be the most accurate, and leave the rifle the cleanest, of all the cheap steel stuff. I've put about a thousand down the tube, without issue.

On a very hot day (105f) last summer, I was shooting the last of my South African surplus, and had a case get stuck. Twice. Failure to extract. That's the only problem this rifle has ever given me, once I figured out that riding the bolt handle forward was a bad idea.

 

[FEG]

My friend and I have shot some pretty light reloads in his Federal Arms G-3 with no problems.

 

[PercyShelley]

I was under the impression* that the longitudinal flutes in the chambers of such weapons largely prevent case head separations, although that does quite horrific things to brass on its own.




*Largely innocent of experience, mind you

 

[marktx]

Mostly shoot SA surplus through my PTR91 as it is (relatively) inexpensive but have shot up a variety of commercial ammo without difficulty. Did a bit of reading up on the HK/PTR before buying and heard a lot of different rumors but not a lot of experience/facts to back it up.

Not sure what was meant in the original post about surplus ammo being difficult to obtain as it is (relatively) plentiful and inexpensive. German, Lithuanian, South African can all be found easily from well known online dealers.

 

[Z-Michigan]

I have shot American Eagle 150gr FMJ and Prvi Partizan 147gr FMJ through mine with no problems at all.

The brass is not damaged by the flutes, at least in my late model PTR91. They do leave soot marks, but no real damage. However, the force of ejection can damage cases when they hit the ejection port.

 

[HM2PAC]

My PTR-91 eats any commercial ammo I feel the need to feed it. It also digests reloads so far.

It is good to know that broken shell extractors have been available since the inception of the weapon. Just about all owners of military weapons will encounter torn off case heads if given enough time. Military ball ammo, commercial, or reloads, AR's, M1's, M1A's, FAL's.......all of'em.

If you have a military pattern weapon you need to know how to clear the weapon after a malfunction such as this.

 

[Onmilo]

Commercial ammunition is fine in bullet weights below 168 grain.
Avoid using ammunition designated as 'light magnum', 'super power', 'extreme performance', anything like that.

I like Winchester Powerpoint 150 grain and Super X 168 grain Match loads, no problems with these in any of my .308 semi auto rifles.

 

[stubbicatt]

PTR91, Inc. say commercial ammo is fine in their rifles. Somewhere they had a list of the ammo that didn't work so well, and it included surplus ammo with tar sealed bullets.

 

[Slamfire]

I was under the impression* that the longitudinal flutes in the chambers of such weapons largely prevent case head separations, although that does quite horrific things to brass on its own.

It is called in Brassey's, "gas lubrication". The flutes extend down to the lower third of the case. It is the bottom third of the case that provides a gas seal.

The whole intent of these flutes is to "float" the upper 2/3 rds of the case off the chamber walls and reduce breech friction. This action opens so rapidly and so earlier in the pressure curve that without flutes the front of the cases would be stuck to the chamber walls and the action would infact rip the case in half. (I think the action would function without an extractor, I think this action just pops the case out under pressure)

Tar sealant will condense in the chamber and clog the flutes. It is important to keep the chamber clean on these actions. Clogged flutes will block the "gas lubrication" effect.

I have shot a bunch of Australian 150 grain ball, that is a clean ammo and works fine. The velocity on the stuff is right at 2600 fps in my PTR 91 and 2800 fps in a 26" barrel. I would not shoot anything that is pushing a 150 grain bullet 2900 fps, like the case of CAVIM I had.

 

[Reddbecca]

Gas lubrication effect...

And we complain about Eugene Stoner's direct impingement system...

 

[Onmilo]

Umm, I don't have any complains about either design.
Keep them fairly clean and they do exactly what they are supposed to do.

The gas piston fans don't tell people that they will foul out too.
It just takes longer and when they do fail, it is a whole lot harder to get them clean again.

Lots of people who don't know any better go and try to clean the pistons and gas tubes with steel wool because they don't know any better or are just taking the lazy approach, big mistake.

I used to replace gas pistons pretty frequently on M14 rifles because guys wanted them to shine for inspection and would polish them up with steel wool and Brasso.
Never mind the Sargeant at Arms never looked at the gas pistons,,,,,,

 

[AK103K]

I was under the impression* that the longitudinal flutes in the chambers of such weapons largely prevent case head separations, although that does quite horrific things to brass on its own.

The flutes do nothing to the brass, other than maybe a few light scratches and some soot, that usually clean right up in a tumbler.

What does tend to beat up the brass in these rifles, is not using a port buffer. Without one, the cases usually get heavily battered hitting the back edge of the ejection port during ejection, putting a hefty dent in the case. Even so, most of the time these too can be reloaded and the dent mostly goes away during resizing.

I used to load a good bit of commercial brass for my HK91's without any real issues. It did seem slightly shorter lived than the same make brass fired out of my M1A's and M1. With them I usually get 10+ reloads before the case head shows signs of going, with the HK brass, I usually only got around 6 or so reloads before I was tossing them. Never had a case fail with an HK though.

I did have some light fire forming of flutes out of my 9mm MP5 using a lot of hot IMI black tipped ammo when it first came around. You could actually see and feel the ridges in the brass. That was the only time I ever saw it happen though, and I didnt try to reload it. I wasnt worth the bother, 9mm was cheap back then.

 

[FEG]

What does tend to beat up the brass in these rifles, is not using a port buffer. Without one, the cases usually get heavily battered hitting the back edge of the ejection port during ejection, putting a hefty dent in the case. Even so, most of the time these too can be reloaded and the dent mostly goes away during resizing.

Again, this is in reference to a Federal Arms G-3.

Very slight variations in powder weight do show up with this action. Unfortunately, I do not have the data, but a buddy and I loaded some check loads for his G-3 with IMR 4895 and the old style 160 gr Hornady spitzer. The top loads would beat the snot out of the case and actually blow through the cardboard we were using to contain the brass. The lower end loads would just work the action and almost fall out. It was bizarre. I have never seen anything like that with any other semi-auto; that is, 10 gr. of powder or less making that much difference in a service rifle cartridge.

 

[evan price]

The flutes do nothing to the brass, other than maybe a few light scratches and some soot, that usually clean right up in a tumbler.

I beg to differ. I've seen brass obviously fired in a fluted chamber that was lightly marked as you describe. I've also seen lots of brass that was CORRUGATED by the fluted chamber. It doesn't come off in a tumbler, the brass is scored lengthwise by the flutes deeply.
Plus most CETMEd brass is the dirtiest brass I've ever seen. The stuff looks like it was dipped in soot.

I've seen commerical brass to be the worst offenders in H&K style rifles, with CAVIM being not far behind. Probably soft brass, high velocity & pressure, and a rifle designed to ensure nobody drinks from the cup after it!

Yeah, the dented-in cases from the ejection suck, too...

 

[AK103K]

I've also seen lots of brass that was CORRUGATED by the fluted chamber. It doesn't come off in a tumbler, the brass is scored lengthwise by the Just curious, but what kind of gun was used?

I've owned a number of HK's over the years, and shot a bunch more, and other than that one batch of IMI in 9mm, never saw brass with even a hint of fire formed flutes. Never saw anything more than some light scratches and soot in rifle brass, .223 or .308, reloads or not. Even the very hot stuff that was recalled for blowing up some guns when it first showed up back in the early 90's showed nothing more than the usual light scratches. This was either CAVIM or CBC, at this point, I dont remember which, but I've shot a bunch of both and never encounted anything other than light scratches and soot.

I'd have to wonder if the gun itself wasnt the issue. I really dont believe that the flutes should be doing anything more than just scratching the brass under normal circumstances if a port buffer is being used.

 

[stubbicatt]

There are often marks on the brass fired in my PTR91. It does not affect the reloading. I am glad that I purchased a port buffer.

 

[Onmilo]

I don't reload the cartridges fired in my PTR-91, mainly because I don't have a brass catcher or a port buffer and I am not walking twenty feet out looking for the cases!

 

[Z-Michigan]

Onmilo - something is wrong with your PTR or the ammo. You should be walking at least 30 feet, probably more like 40-50 feet. Send me your PTR and all your ammo so I can test it for you.