Compact 1911 - Springfield or Kimber?

[rellascout]

I love my Kimber CDP II Ultra. I did replace the thumb safety and slide stop with Wilson parts. I modded the thumb safety and sand blasted them both to match the slide.

Nicely done....

 

[MCMXI]

For full disclosure lets list the MIM parts in a MIMber....

- Barrel bushing
- Hammer
- Grip safety
- Thumb safety
- Extractor
- Slide stop
- Front sight
- Sear
- Disconnector

You missed the magazine release and the ejector!! I ended up replacing almost every MIM part in my Kimber with Ed Brown parts and am in the process of fine tuning the extractor, ejector and disconnector. I also removed the firing pin safety. I'm still using the MIM grip safety and mag release but will eventually change those too. The trigger pull went from 5lb-8oz to 3lb-12oz (similar to my Ed Brown SFC).

I didn't change the parts because I had to, I did it because I wanted to and I really enjoyed the whole process. That's the good news about the 1911 platform. If you want to replace any parts that you're worried about, you can. I'll be using the Kimber for IPSC and don't want to be a test bunny for MIM. When you do the work yourself and fit the thumb safety, extractor, ejector, disconnector, grip safety etc., you soon realize why MIM parts are so much cheaper to make and install. Despite all the MIM, I will definitely buy another Kimber or two and go through the same process of upgrading the parts.

 

[MCMXI]

rellascout, some folks have mentioned that their Kimber has a plastic mainspring housing (MSH) but my TEII came with a steel one. But now that I think about it, it may or may not be MIM ... I forget to check when I was fitting the Ed Brown parts. Anyway, here's a photo of the other side of my Kimber as it is now compared to how it was. I replaced the ambi safety with an Ed Brown extended safety ... non ambi. I really like this pistol.

 

[rellascout]

Very nice pistol 1858... not exactly my taste in 1911s but she is still a beauty. I am glad to hear that replacing all those parts in your Kimber was a labor of love for you. I know a lot of shooter who enjoy making their 1911 uniquely theirs.

My issue is that OTB that Kimber is a $1000 pistol but still needs that work.

 

[MCMXI]

My issue is that OTB that Kimber is a $1000 pistol but still needs that work.

rellascout, thanks ... but I'm in no position to say whether or not the Kimber "needs" non-MIM parts. I've only put 500 or so rounds through it in stock form and it was running great with no issues. If I were being more scientific, I would have run it to failure with the MIM parts but I don't want to deal with that possibility during a match. Obviously, an Ed Brown part could break too so we'll see. There are MIM parts in many firearms these days. I'm not crazy about MIM either but that's not based on any engineering analysis on my part, merely a deep-rooted sense that forged or CNC from barstock is superior in terms of strength and resistance to fatigue. It's quite possible in this age of optimization (a money problem) that MIM parts are good enough in many applications. However, if there's a choice, I tend to lean towards the I. K. Brunel school of engineering where you build something to last ten times longer than required. One of the appealing aspects of buying, owning and shooting 1911s is that you don't have to settle for anything.

As for my Kimber, you probably don't like the rail or the front slide serrations. To be honest, I'm not overly keen on the rail but the additional serrations are ok with me.

 

[rellascout]

As for my Kimber, you probably don't like the rail or the front slide serrations. To be honest, I'm not overly keen on the rail but the additional serrations are ok with me.

Yeah its the rail more than anything. LOL

I personally can live with the front serrations are the right gun.



In the end its all about what you like.

 

[orionengnr]

I have owned Colt, Kimber, Springfield, Para, Les Baer, Dan Wesson and several other brands of 1911. Over twenty 1911s in the last 25-30 years. That is fact.

What follows is my opinion, worth no more and no less than anyone else's opinion.

Be sure that you understand the difference between the two, as many posters will present their opinion as fact.

That said: In my experience (and opinion) the Ultra CDP is a $1000 pistol, and worth every dime. I currently own two (plus an Ultra Carry).
I had a Defender and sold it. It is a $750 pistol, and probably worth it.

Colt is not a high production house. Their guns get more hands on time on the line than any other production guns. They have limited their production to the number of guns that they feel they can properly produce. There was a time when their quality suffered. They shrunk back and a company and have seen returned to producing great 1911s.

I bought my last Colt just about two years ago (and I do mean my "last" Colt). If it was an example of their "return to greatness", I think I'll stick to Kimbers.
And I really wanted to be a Colt fan. First handgun I ever shot was my dad's WWII Colt 1911, and the first handgun I ever bought was a Colt 1911. I was born and raised less than 40 miles from the Colt factory in Hartford, and visited the factory it in my youth. However, in real life, you only get so many chances.

Post #21:

Front strap checkering on a 3" gun is completely unnecessary. The look like crap on 5" gun too IMHO. I am not a big fan of press checking my guns.

You are confusing front strap checkering with forward cocking serrations (your reference to press checking reinforces this). Whole different deal, and unrelated in any way.

See what I mean about being careful what you read and believe?

 

[rellascout]

You are confusing front strap checkering with forward cocking serrations (your reference to press checking reinforces this). Whole different deal, and unrelated in any way.

Your are correct... I misread and then misstated the value of front strap checkering. I was referring to forward cocking serrations.

It cracks me up that you feel the need to clarify opinion vs fact....

The overwhelming majority of what is posted on this site is opinion. This gun is accurate. This gun is tight. This gun is more reliable etc...................... are all opinions. You stating that the MIMber is worth $1000 is opinion as you have stated. I personally always state my opinion with conviction. If you do not state your opinion with conviction and substance why bother?

As I stated I love these discussions because people take them so seriously and so personally. Its as if their choice of gun defines them as a person or in some way adds or subtracts from their feelings of self worth. I personally do not need public validation for my gun choices. In the end buy what you want for whatever reason you want. After all its your money. I will continue to buy what I like based on my subjective personal OPINION

 

[orionengnr]

You are cracked up because I speak with clarity instead of with emotion? And with accuracy on points of fact?
How have I failed to express my opinion with conviction? At least I provided some substantiation for my opinion.

The fact is, I am not taking it personally. You and everyone else are free to spend your money as you wish.

I am careful to differentiate between fact and opinion, and I make that clear...in the hope that others may make an informed decision. Many (cough, cough) state their opinion as fact. I think we have seen that in this thread.

If that "cracks you up", well, there you go.

 

[rellascout]

You are cracked up because I speak with clarity instead of with emotion?
How have I failed to express my opinion with conviction?

Where did I say you didn't. Also where do you see emotion. We are talking about guns here I have no real emotional investment in them. Do you? Obviously you do because you felt the need to bring your fathers gun into the discussion. As I said its your money so keep buying Kimbers. I wish you luck.....

 

[rellascout]

I am careful to differente between fact and opinion, and make that clear...in the hope that others may make an informed decision.

The fact is that MIMber used more MIM parts than any other $1000 1911 on the market. They do that to lower the production cost and improve profits. They do not use the following parts for quality purposes. Please enlighten me. Does Kimber use these MIM parts to improve the quality of the product or are they simply cost cutting measures in the highest priced production 1911s on the market?

MIM parts in a MIMber....

- Barrel bushing
- Hammer
- Grip safety
- Thumb safety
- Extractor
- Slide stop
- Front sight
- Sear
- Disconnector
- magazine release
- ejector

Are these facts or opinion?

 

[MCMXI]

The fact is that MIMber used more MIM parts than any other $1000 1911 on the market. They do that to lower the production cost and improve profits. They do not use the following parts for quality purposes. Please enlighten me. Does Kimber use these MIM parts to improve the quality of the product or are they simply cost cutting measures in the highest priced production 1911s on the market?

It sure would be interesting to see who uses what and if there's a clear correlation between MIM content and failure rate. Also, is there an accurate list anywhere out there detailing the parts in different manufacturer's 1911s? So far I haven't been able to find one. Such a list would be very helpful. Which frames and slides are cast, which are forged, which parts are MIM, what kind of barrel etc. Manufacturers don't go into those details on their web sites ... not all of them anyway.

My Kimber came with Meprolight sights so I don't think the front site is MIM but I paid a bit more than $1,000. I paid around $1,200 for mine and put about $300 of parts into it. So now I have a $1,500 pistol which is in line with or even a bit cheaper than a Dan Wesson Valor. I don't know if DW uses any MIM parts but their production pistols aren't cheap.

 

[orionengnr]

Let's deal in facts...

Fact:
Of the seven Kimbers I have owned, I have never had a failure. This includes thousands of rounds of factory ammo and far more of my 200 gr SWC handloads, 3 inch/4 inch/5 inch barrels, alloy frames, steel frames, internal extractors and external extractors, Series II or pre-Series II.

Fact:
Of all of the other brands of 1911 I have owned through the last 25-30 years (enumerated earlier) and untold rounds, no other brand can make that claim, or anything close to it.

Fact:
You may dislike MIM (and on a theoretical level I can agree), but I have never had, or seen, a MIM part fail. Until I do, my objection to MIM will remain theoretical.

That is objective, not subjective. Again, fact-based vice emotion driven.

 

[rellascout]

Dan Wesson IMHO have moved out of the production level to a semi-custom. They chose not up production and instead refine the product. I personally think they are borderline too expensive.

I have never seen a complete list of MIM across the major manufactures in one place. If you look around you can find lists on specific manufactures. Maybe a late night project... LOL

 

[rellascout]

So orionengnr these are not facts?

MIM parts in a MIMber....

- Barrel bushing
- Hammer
- Grip safety
- Thumb safety
- Extractor
- Slide stop
- Front sight
- Sear
- Disconnector
- magazine release
- ejector

This is more MIM parts than in any other $1000 1911? Please lets take your emotion out of it? I see no vice or emotion in these facts. Simply answer the question?

 

[orionengnr]

This is more MIM parts than in any other $1000 1911? Please lets take your emotion out of it? I see no vice or emotion in these facts. Simply answer the question?

Ummmm....Did you not read post #38?


BTW, I have a Dan Wesson 10mm CBOB.
As a work of art, it a a beautiful pistol.
As a functioning defensive weapon, it is (at best) a work in progress.
I don't know if it has MIM in it or not, but you can read about my experiences (and the similar problems experienced by others) on the 1911forum.com.

Another example of a theoretically perfectly executed 1911 that fails regularly in the real world...

 

[rellascout]

Keep not answering the question about facts.... Do Kimbers have more MIM than any other $1000 1911? In your opinion do they do this because it makes their 1911s better or is it a cost cutting measure which improves profits? Simply unemotional questions you still refuse to answer.

I stated that they choose to limit production instead of increasing it in order to maintain/improve quality. Please show me where I stated Dan Wessons were perfect?

 

[orionengnr]

Nope, someone else mentioned DWs, so I attempted to address that, and I used it as another example of ludicrous brand loyalty.

Now, please focus and tell me...which of your questions am I not answering to your satisfaction? Because bedtime is growing near...

 

[rellascout]

Do Kimbers have more MIM than any other $1000+ 1911?

In your opinion do they do this because it makes their 1911s better or is it a cost cutting measure which improves profits?

Do you think MIM parts are better than their forged or cast counterparts?

 

[Hedgemeister]

This whole argument over MIMber thing has gone on too long. Plenty of high end rifles, revolvers and shotguns have MIM parts as well. If the MIM process is done right those parts can can be stronger than forging. I don't think any of us have PHD's in metallurgy. Remington, Smith and Wesson, Kimber, Browning etc. would not stake their name on those parts if they were not reliable. If you don't like MIM don't buy it. Get over it. Time to close another thread that has digressed into idiocracy.

 

[rellascout]

This whole argument over MIMber thing has gone on too long. Plenty of high end rifles, revolvers and shotguns have MIM parts as well. If the MIM process is done right those parts can can be stronger than forging. I don't think any of us have PHD's in metallurgy. Remington, Smith and Wesson, Kimber, Browning etc. would not stake their name on those parts if they were not reliable. If you don't like MIM don't buy it. Get over it. Time to close another thread that has digressed into idiocracy.

Are you trying to say one should not express their opinion on MIM pro or con? The reality is that a PHD in metallurgy would not be relevant unless we know the exact mixture and process each company is using.

Toyota staked their rep on drive by wire and that has worked well for them. LOL Simply because a major corporation adopts a practice or process does not mean it is sound....

In the end orionengnr is right in that most of what is said here is simply opinion. Like I said we all buy what we like/want because its our money. I think discussions about pros and cons of one brand or another is part of what this site is all about. This discussion has not gotten out of hand. No one is sling insluts. Jabs maybe insults. NO.... isn't a spirited discussion worth having?

 

[Hedgemeister]

Wow. 90%+ of vehicles sold in america are drive by wire and the plane I flew in the Navy was fly by wire. Just goes to show the ridiculousness of your argument. Your knowledge is based off stuff you read on forums on the internet. Opinions are fine and as stated, that is what orion was giving.

 

[Hedgemeister]

OP, both guns are great. Pick which one fits you best and you can't go wrong.

 

[orionengnr]

Oh, are we still arguing about this?

Do Kimbers have more MIM than any other $1000 1911? In your opinion do they do this because it makes their 1911s better or is it a cost cutting measure which improves profits?

You ask for my opinion, after we have gone back and forth about dealing in facts? Really?

In Post #38 I said :

Fact:
You may dislike MIM (and on a theoretical level I can agree), but I have never had, or seen, a MIM part fail. Until I do, my objection to MIM will remain theoretical

.
If that doesn't answer your question, let me clarify. Until I see a correlation between MIM and parts failures, your concern is irrelevant to me. What I care about is functioning 1911s, not theoretical objections to manufacturing processes that have no measureable affect on the functioning of said 1911.
Again...objective results.

Now, I think we are really hijacking this guys's thread...but I hope that he has gained something of value.

The whole MIMber thing is name-calling, and reflects poorly on your ability to make a legitimate argument. That is exaclty what the libs have been doing to Sarah Palin, Glenn Beck and Bill O'Reilly for a while. If you can't make your case, go for the smear. Pretty sorry tactics.

The Toyota comment reflects further upon your knowledge (or lack thereof). I am done here.

If you wish to beat on this dead horse some more, please pm me...or email me at orionengnr at yahoo dot com

Best of luck to you. Bed-time here. I'll stop by tomorrow (or maybe not).

 

[MCMXI]

If the MIM process is done right those parts can can be stronger than forging. I don't think any of us have PHD's in metallurgy.

I have a few SIGs and a Kimber with MIM parts and have defended SIG for using MIM in the past. I don't have a PhD in metallurgy but I would be very surprised if any MIM part with the same dimensions is stronger than the equivalent forged part. MIM parts have something approaching 98% of the density of forged parts so how can they possibly be stronger? The only question is, are they strong enough?!! This has been the trend in just about anything these days. Optimization means using the least amount of resources to achieve an "acceptable" level of performance. The factor of safety of many systems is getting lower and lower to save money. Welcome to the new world.

I don't think this thread is "digressed into idiocracy" whatever that is. I hope it continues and we can all learn something.