Companion and backup guns, and compatible ammo

[IA_farmboy]

I've been thinking about my next firearm purchase and was thinking about some things I've read here and other places. One thing I noticed was talk of "companion rifles" or "companion guns" where people would get a handgun and rifle pair that use the same ammunition. I've also noticed where people have their primary firearm unavailable, because of theft, confiscation (such as the poor guy that was in a car accident), loss, or repair, and then they wish they had a spare.

Then there is what I would call "compatible" ammunition, where a cartridge style is based upon another such that both can be fired safely from the same firearm. Here's some examples: (feel free to offer corrections or additions)

- .45 schofield, .45 (long) colt, .454 casull, .460 magnum, .410 bore
- .38 special, .357 magnum, .357 maximum
- .44 special, .44 magnum

I realize that one should not put a round into a firearm not designed for it, such as while a .460 magnum might fit into a .410 bore shotgun the result from pulling the trigger would very likely be catastrophic.

I understand the desire to have companion firearms. It would simplify logistics as one doesn't have to worry about keeping a wide variety of ammunition on hand to feed a handful of firearms. It also allows for cheaper "plinking" ammo while allowing for stouter stuff for hunting.

I'm thinking of taking up deer hunting so I'm looking for calibers I can use in Iowa. I'm also thinking it may be a good idea to have something appropriate for SD/HD at the same time. A revolver with a scope might be great for hunting but poor for defense. Likewise a semi-auto might be great for defense it might not be the most appropriate for hunting deer.

Since the primary purpose I'm getting a handgun and rifle is for deer hunting I'll give a quick rundown of what is legal here:
- 10-, 12-, 16-, and 20-gauge shotgun firing single slug only.
- Muzzle loader between .44 and .775 caliber with single projectiles.
- Center fire handgun, .357 magnum and up. (The DNR lists probably 30 different calibers, I won't bore you with the list here)
- Center fire rifle, .240 caliber and up.

I don't want to get too much into which caliber is best for what, there are plenty of threads here that cover that topic. (I'm following that "Deer Hunting .357 vs. .44" thread right now.) I listed the allowable hunting firearms so that people have an idea of where to start and avoid talk about .22 caliber for example.

I want to get input on whether or not a companion pair is a good idea. Has your companion firearms suited you well? Did you buy a pistol caliber rifle only to trade it in for a more powerful rifle? Do you have a defense weapon and hunting weapon, or do you have one to serve double duty? If you have separate defense and hunting weapons are they chambered in the same or compatible ammunition (.38 special for defense and .357 magnum for hunting for example)?

Conceal carry is quite strict here so I don't think I'll be carrying any time soon but I'm open to comments on how concealable some weapons/calibers are in case I feel the need to jump through those hoops to get licensed.

 

[crebralfix]

44 Magnum would be a good choice. You could get a S&W 29 or 629 and a lever gun in the same caliber. If 44 Magnum is too much for you in the revolver, then you can always use 44 Special.

You may also find reloading for a 44 Magnum carbine to be quite fun.

 

[IA_farmboy]

Ah yes, the S&W 29... "The most powerful handgun in the world."

I took a look at that revolver and discovered its infamy that Dirty Harry gave it. I also saw its a double action without scope mount points. My understanding is that single action is preferred for hunting, and that a scope is nearly essential. I'm sure it would make a great defense weapon, and be passable if my primary hunting weapon fails me, but I don't think that is what I'm looking for.

I was thinking about the Ruger Super Blackhawk or Super Redhawk for my first handgun. These have mount points for a scope and come in .357, .44, and .45/.454 calibers. I'd want something with a long barrel, like 10 inches, to take full advantage of the powder in the cartridge and give me an accuracy advantage. If I feel I need something that acts as a spare and more suitable for defense I'd get something a bit smaller, like a 5 or 6 inch barrel. As long as it's barrel is longer than 4 inches I can still hunt with it. The spare/defense handgun doesn't need scope mount points but I'd probably want them.

I'm not planning on reloading at this time but I won't rule it out in the future.

 

[IA_farmboy]

Hmmmm... I was expecting more of a response.


Maybe I should simplify the question. Did any of you buy a center fire pistol caliber rifle to go with a handgun you already had? If so, has it been useful for you?

 

[FireArmFan]

I shot my first 2 deer with the carbine.

http://www.ruger.com/Firearms/FAFamily?type=Rifle&subtype=Lever Action&famlst=37

Something like that would be great for deer hunting plus you could get a .44 mag revolver to satisfy the handgun needs. The little ruger works great for hunting in thick minnesota woods where you don't get a shot further than 50 yards in most places. I haven't hunted with it in about 7 years but sometimes I miss carrying it in the woods.

 

[461]

I value the concept of multiple guns in the same caliber and have a few sets.

I have a scoped 9.5" Super Redhawk in .44Mag as well as a Marlin stainless levergun in .44Mag and actually just bought a 4" Redhawk to go with them. The .44 is great for hunting and can take (and has taken) any game in North America. While not a long range proposition, the power is plenty for anything inside a hundred yards and can use a .44Special or downloaded handloads for plinking.

While not for hunting unless it's small game, I have .32Mags in a 3" SP-101, a 5.5" Single-Six and a Marlin lever action. The round is great fun and is a handloaders dream for a plinker.

I have a pair of .357's in a Ruger GP-100 and a Blackhawk, I intend to buy a Marlin in this caliber in the next few weeks and have had a Winchester in the past. The .357 is adequate for anything up to a deer and is perfect for defense. The .357 or .38spl from a levergun has about zero recoil and gives a great deal more power than a revolver in this chambering.

Lastly I have a pair of 9mm handguns, a Glock (34) and a Ruger SP-101, not for hunting but a great defensive combo that shares the same ammo.

For the beginning shooter having a short and long gun in the same round makes a lot of sense for ammo buying and for a beginning handloader is great too as there's less to master.

 

[IA_farmboy]

I'm reading pretty much what I wanted and what I expected. I was just curious if anyone felt they needed a rifle with a necked down cartridge to hunt as a straight wall cartridge didn't have the desired ballistics.

I don't know if this is just happenstance or if I didn't word my questions properly but I didn't mean to limit the discussion of companion guns to only caliber that had "compatible" or special vs. magnum variations. I'm also surprised how little of a response I got here so far given the traffic this forum gets. Perhaps I should have put this in the "hunting" category. (That's a hint to the moderators.)

I noticed on my last visit to Gander Mountain that .40 S&W ammunition and firearms were plentiful and inexpensive. There were quite a few used handguns in that caliber in the clearance/used display case. I don't suppose there is a lever rifle in .40 S&W out there somewhere?

I saw the Ruger convertibles in my search for my first handgun and found them quite intriguing. The .45 colt/ACP convertible would make a nice companion to a .45 colt Marlin Cowboy or a semi-auto .45 ACP pistol. I could then buy whatever is cheapest on my way to the range to feed that revolver.

The Ruger convertibles don't seem to have scope mount points, and the barrels are a bit on the short side, not sure I'd want that as a primary hunting weapon. Ruger even states that on their website as they try to sell it as a backup to a rifle or to shoot targets.

Mostly I'm replying here to give the thread a "bump" in the hope I get a few more responses. I do appreciate the responses I got so far, thanks.

 

[shooter58]

I have a 357 revolver and as a companion, a Rossi M92 carbine in 357. I have found the carbine to be quite adequate for the little Texas whitetail here as long as I keep the range at 125 yds or less. I absolutely love the combo, as the carbine also double as a pretty good home defense rifle. I had a 44 mag pistol/carbine combo, but got rid of it as it seemed to be overkill for this area.

 

[General Geoff]

I wouldn't mind a 10mm combo, but 10mm pistols are few and far between, and 10mm carbines are practically nonexistent...

 

[markallen]

you can always go with the TC Encore. That will give you any rifle/pistol combination, in just about any matching caliber. Although this leaves the self defense area wide open since the TC are single shots.

 

[40SW]

Excellent thread. Ammunition and accesory compatability is one of my favorite subjects and I am a firm believer. Here are some examples. I will give 10 right off the bat that are standard in my armory that help me tremendously. I am sure there are dozens more, but here are ones that standout in my mind and that I constantly utilize. Hope it helps.

1. Kel Tec Sub 2000 carbine in 9mm and .40SW , also takes Glock, SIG,S&W, and Beretta mags. (depending upon the model of course, but an excellent concept).

2. Glock magazines in general that cross model numbers in the same caliber.

3. The Beretta CX4 Storm Carbine. I am not sure if 92 or 96 model magazines are yet compatible, but someone told me they are working on it.

4. Hi Point Carbines in 9mm and .40SW, cross compatability with Hi Point Pistol Mags. Whatever you guys may think of Hi Point carbines, I own a couple and love them. Alot of LEOS also carry them in their trunk. Cheap and dependable.

5. The Kel Tec SU16 .223 carbine also accepts standard AR Mags, I love that feature. Kel Tec has got it right.

6. Ruger P carbine rifle series in 9mm & 40SW also take Ruger P94 and P95/89 centerfire pistol magazines.

7. I also like the fact that alot of Glocks and Sigs allow for .357SIG/.40SW barrel swapouts.

8. 1911 .22LR conversion kits for the .45ACP. Excellent way to practice economically and build muscle memory with your 1911. Excellent recoil transition tool.

9. The CZ75 Kadet .22LR conversion kit, same concept as the 1911 conversion kit, but for the ever popular and exceptional CZ75.

10. Rossi and NEF Shotgun/rifle conversions barrel kits.

 

[Nameless_Hobo]

you could get a Marlin Guide Gun and a BFR.

If you want a semi-auto, you could get a Desert Eagle and a Ruger .44 carbine. I don't know if the Ruger carbine comes in .357 as well, but you could get a desert eagle and a levergun.

 

[Polishrifleman]

I have the same feelings but different reasons. I have various rifles from .22 up to .450 Marlin. My handguns are much different I have stuck with .45 in the 1911 platform and .357/.38 in wheelguns.

I burn through more pistol ammo than rifle ammo so I chose to keep the caliber choices to a minimum.

I just purchased a Marlin 1894C chambered in .357 which I am looking forward to utilizing my ammo with. This will allow me to grab a pistol and rifle and head out the door with a box or two of ammo and not look back. I can't tell you how many times I have grabbed my ammo box and a rifle and headed out the door only to find I don't have the right gun for the ammo or vice versa until it's too late.

 

[Moondoggie]

I could be wrong, probably am, but I don't think anybody makes a revolver in .40 S&W....

A small frame 5 shot revolver in .40 S&W would make a good companion/backup gun for most cops who carry a semi-auto in that caliber.

I'd buy one in a heartbeat.

 

[Eyesac]

I'll say that I have a Taurus tracker in .357 and a Win94 in .357 and absolutly love them both. The Tracker does double duty as my bedside gun. I just wish I had a Marlin in .357 to trash (as I want to keep the Win94 in good shape). The Winchester is great, and I don't feel like a .357 out of the 16" barrel is under powered. I would also like to get my hands on .44s in each. But as Hobo said:

you could get a Marlin Guide Gun and a BFR

Ouch! Hurts just thinking about...

 

[IA_farmboy]

Thanks for the advise. Some comments...

T/C Encore/Contender:
I thought about going that route. An Encore or Contender would allow me to switch barrels for a variety of calibers. They come with long barrels for range and accuracy, in pistol (12" or 14", IIRC) or rifle (20"+) lengths, and are made for mounting a scope. Also, I could probably avoid some of the hassle of a pistol license by getting the rifle version and then later going back to the same store, or buy online, a pistol barrel and grip.

Problems I see is that it's a single shot. I don't know how good I'll be at "one shot=one kill" and would like the option of a quick follow up shot if needed. The idea of switching barrels is intriguing but in near opposition of trying to keep my investment cost down. Each barrel will either have a scope or I'll have to spend the time in moving a scope and sighting it.

If I buy an Encore or Contender with a rifle barrel and stock and add a pistol grip and barrel I don't really have two weapons, I still have just one. I don't know how much all of this would cost as I haven't spent the time to price it all out, so I don't know if there is much of a cost advantage. I imagine buying a Contender pistol/rifle set would not be cheap. If someone can provide numbers I would appreciate it.

I'm not trying to harp on the point, I'm just trying to explain my position so someone can argue for or against an Encore or Contender. I just don't think this is the best way to start out.

Autoloaders:
I read somewhere, I think it was on THR somewhere, someone argue against autoloaders. The argument was something like the magazine can get lost, damaged, or (yeah, I do this) forgotten. If the weapon doesn't have the magazine you have, at best, a single shot weapon. Revolvers and trapdoor rifles can be topped off easily and quickly in the field.

I'm not opposed to autoloaders in a more, how shall I say this... urban environment, as there is less chance of a magazine being lost in snow or mud, or dropped on a rock and bent. I think it would be a great idea for a defense weapon, or even a backup while hunting in case I lose my primary weapon to snow, mud, or rocks.

I think I'll start off with a revolver or lever rifle. I'm thinking there is a reason these weapons are preferred by hunters so I'll stick with them until convinced otherwise.

BFR:
OK, maybe the joke is on me but... What is a BFR?

.40 S&W:
I did a quick Google search and didn't see any revolvers or lever rifles in .40 S&W. I thought this might be a cheap way to hunt as Gander Mountain seems to keep themselves well stocked in .40 S&W ammunition. I asked one of the employees why that was and he said it was because that caliber is popular with local and federal LEOs. I asked if people hunt with .40 S&W and said, "Yeah, but you'll look kinda funny shooting deer with a Glock." He then pointed me to some revolvers in .45 colt.

Thanks again to all, I really enjoy soaking this all in.

 

[Rey B]

I may be wrong but I believe if you buy a Contender as a rifle and then put a pistol grip and or pistol barrel on it you have just "manufactured a short barrel rifle" a big no no.

 

[CU74]

I have two "paired" calibers. Several .357 Magnum revolvers and a Marlin 1894CB with a 20" barrel, (all will take the .38 Special cartridge as well) plus several 9mm brass-chuckers and a 9mm Marlin Camp Carbine. None are used for hunting. Now, if I could find a .30-06 revolver.....................

 

[IA_farmboy]

I may be wrong but I believe if you buy a Contender as a rifle and then put a pistol grip and or pistol barrel on it you have just "manufactured a short barrel rifle" a big no no.

Correct. For reference:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Thompson-Center_Arms_Company

Taking a Contender frame or receiver or whatever-you-wanna-call-it and put a pistol grip with a rifle length barrel, or a rifle stock and a pistol length barrel, is a no-no. I came across the link above while investigating potential purchases.

What I found interesting in investigating the legalities of my new hobby I found that it is illegal for me to BUY a handgun without a license but it is not illegal for me to OWN a handgun without a license. So, as far as I understand things, it is perfectly legal for me to buy a Contender rifle and a pistol grip and pistol barrel and assemble my own handgun at home.

Thinking about this I wonder if this is a county policy or a state policy. I'll investigate that the next time I find myself shopping outside Linn county.

Another legal... inconsistency? loophole? idiocy? is that, IIRC, black powder muzzle loaders are not considered firearms. I found these converter chambers to allow cap and ball revolvers to fire standard revolver cartridges, such as the .45 colt. Assemble these two non-firearm items (as far as the BATFE is concerned) and you have a firearm (again, as far as the BATFE is concerned).

It's not that I'm afraid of a background check or I'm trying to get around the law, I just find these laws on firearms to be quite arbitrary, useless, inconvenient for honest people, and well... just plain boneheaded. :banghead:

Enough of the legal talk, that is for another time and place.

Looking more thoroughly on revolvers in .40 S&W I find that there are in fact revolvers that will safely chamber and fire a .40 S&W. I also found that they, to me at least, sound like an ugly hack. I've read where people found them difficult to load and unload as all these revolvers use moon clips to hold the cartridge in place.

If I feel the need to get a revolver to back up an autoloader I think I'll get one of those Ruger convertibles. They sound like solid firearms.

That Marlin Camp Carbine sounds interesting but it looks like it is out of production. Judging from the reviews I read I can understand why, it sounded like they were merely adequate to poor performers.

 

[Eyesac]

No joke, just a big revolver...

I've never shot one...

http://www.magnumresearch.com/BFR.asp

 

[IA_farmboy]

Thanks Eyesac.

I'm still soaking this all in. I'm also considering muzzle loader and bow hunting. I need to act soon if I'm going to hunt this season since I have to take a safety course before I can get a hunting license. I also need to get a handgun purchase license if I want a revolver.

I've narrowed my choice of calibers down to three, .357/.38, .44 and .45. I can easily find many revolvers and rifles in these calibers. It looks like the price difference in ammunition costs is minimal. I look at the calibers I chose and it's kind of where I started. From here it's just a matter of personal preference.

I'll keep an eye on this thread in case someone else has any more sage advice.

 

[IA_farmboy]

I've convinced myself to go with the Blackhawk Convertible in .357/9mm. That should be a good place to start, something that should do well for hunting deer and as a HD weapon. Before I buy it I'll have to do the paperwork for a handgun purchase license. Not a big hurry since other obligations will probably keep me from hunting this season any way.

I was thinking of another backup/companion weapon to add to my arsenal but I'm having trouble finding one. Can someone help me find a double barrel .410/.45 shotgun/rifle? I figure something like that would be useful for a number of things such as backup my inevitable purchase of a lever gun, something I might try shooting skeet with, for when a .357 revolver just isn't enough gun, etc. I assume I can find one for minimal $$$.