Primer substitutions

[coloradokevin]

How safe is it to substitute different brands of primers than the load manual states, assuming that you work the loads up from the typical "starting loads", and stay within the same type of primer?

I'm not refering to substituting regular primers for magnum primers or anything like that, just the idea of using, say, Winchester Large Rifle Primers in place of Federal Large Rifle primers?

Normally I've found myself following the load manual almost exactly (except for brass brand substitutions). But, I'm sort of in a bind right now with regards to primer availability, and wanted to see if you guys thought it was safe to make a switch!

I'm trying to load some Barnes TSX bullets for my 8mm Mauser, and only have Winchester Large Rifle Primers. The load data on the Barnes website is fairly hot (http://www.barnesbullets.com/images/8x57mmMauserWeb.pdf), and calls for Federal GM210M primers, which I can't currently find!

Thanks for the help!

 

[Dean Williams]

You'll be okay using Win primers instead of the Feds. Just drop 10% and work up like you would for any new load.
Your brass brand substitutions can cause quite a bit of difference in pressures. Some brands hold less powder than others.

 

[33rowdy]

..+2

 

[loadedround]

I agree with Mr. Williams also.

 

[The Bushmaster]

You will find very little difference between primer manufacturers. Example: When using CCI standard small pistol primers in .38 Special and shifting to Winchester Standard small pistol primers. The difference in fps is around 25 fps or less. With rifle primers even less. If you feel you need to lower the powder charge when changing to a different, but equal primer I wouldn't go any lower the 3%. It just won't make that much difference.

AND...If you are loading below maximum powder charge I wouldn't even change the powder charge...

If you are exchanging primers from standard to magnum primers THEN I would drop the powder charge by 10%...

 

[33rowdy]

Quote

"If you are loading below maximum powder charge I wouldn't even change the powder charge..."

I agree their also. If I'm loading in the low or middle of the load data, I'll load and shoot 5 rounds then make a decision from their.

 

[Mal H]

Some will say that you should always drop back 10% whenever you change any component. But, in truth, I agree with The Bushmaster. The drop back 10% rule comes into play when you have already worked up to either the maximum published load or the maximum load for your particular firearm. If you are simply playing around at or near the bottom to middle of the powder range, changing a like for like primer from a different manufacturer won't blow up your gun.

 

[Dean Williams]

I don't particularly disagree with Bushmaster or Mal. It's possible I would do the same myself. This is what the OP says, though;

He is loading "fairly hot".
He is changing pirmers, and,
He is changing cases.

Dropping 10% from max and working back up will probably only take 30-35 shots.

 

[Mal H]

We were talking more generally than the OP's post. However, he didn't say he was loading fairly hot, he said the data on the Barne's site was fairly hot.

Unless I read his post incorrectly he is planning to start at the min and work up as usual and was only asking if it was ok to substitute WLR's for the Fed LR primers - which it is.

 

[coloradokevin]

Unless I read his post incorrectly he is planning to start at the min and work up as usual

You are correct. I don't plan to go hot initially, and plan to stay safely within the comforting confines of the established load data (no cowboying around for me when I handload).

The thing is, a lot of 8mm Mauser data seems to be sandbagged a bit. My understanding is that this stems from the possibility of a person attempting to chamber a modern .323 diameter bullet in the original .318 bore diameter bore (I have the .323 diameter bore).

Anyway, if you compare Barnes with other load manuals, it seems that Barnes has felt safe with loading to the cartridge's true potential (if you click on my link they even mention that they show loads to 51,000 PSI, while SAAMI specs stop at 35,000 PSI).

Still, I want to SAFELY work my loads up!

 

[redneck2]

How safe is it to substitute different brands of primers than the load manual states, assuming that you work the loads up from the typical "starting loads", and stay within the same type of primer?

I've read that just changing primer brands can change pressure as much as 7,000#. Now, if you're shooting a rifle with bottle neck rounds, percentage wise that's a small change. If you're shooting shotgun, it will most likely destroy you and your gun.

You cannot make blanket statement that always or never apply. Depends on the situation.

On Steve's Pages, he talks about a rifle that he could not get to group under 2". Tried about everything. Bullets, powder, seating depth. Changed primer brands and instantly dropped to sub 1". Something changed.

You will find very little difference between primer manufacturers. Example: When using CCI standard small pistol primers in .38 Special and shifting to Winchester Standard small pistol primers. The difference in fps is around 25 fps or less. With rifle primers even less. If you feel you need to lower the powder charge when changing to a different, but equal primer I wouldn't go any lower the 3%. It just won't make that much difference.

How do you know? Chronographs are pretty useless as to determining pressure. You can have a fast powder that gives a higher pressure spike but lower FPS.

 

[Grumulkin]

I've used various primers in cartridge cases the size of 308 Winchester and larger and can tell you that thus far, and I load for 20 or 30 cartridges, in cases that size, brand or type of primer has made no difference as far as pressure is concerned except Remington primers seem a bit cooler than others and pressure is thus lower.

It is my practice, if I think I can wring a bit more accuracy out of a load, to try various primers. These can include Federal 210M, Federal 215M, CCI BR2, Remington large rifle, WLR, WLRM and CCI 250 primers.

 

[RandyP]

"I've read that just changing primer brands can change pressure as much as 7,000#."

Rather alarming info. Do you have the source URL to share? I can understand a substantial pressure change from standard to magnum primers, or reducing OAL, or overcrimping etc. but I would be very surprised to learn that there was anything but a marginal difference in any make of the same size & design primer. They all cost about the same per K so it would not make much economic sense from the manufacturer's standpoint? I dunnno, I ain't no expert ner nuthin'.....I surf the internet -lol

 

[ForneyRider]

When in doubt, go straight off the recipe.

Striving for perfection, you may end up testing lots of types and brands of primers. One recent article in Handloader Journal on match 308 Win, the magnum LR primer bettered a match LR primer, and a Wolf primer bettered several match primers by Federal etc. That was when everything else was held constant and only primers were changed.

Aside: 51,000 is CIP, the Euro equiv. of SAMMI, for 8x57. Most of the Mauser rifles can handle, but not all, so some dropped to SAMMI spec to work with .318 barrels.

 

[Clifford]

I wouldnt worry much about brand changes for lower than max charge loads, i have done the same thing with .45 loads and didnt have any problems. I get more velocity variance from mixed brass than mixed primers. I would advise to back off the charge and work up if you are switching to magnum from standard primers. I messed with this on a .38 super and wasnt happy with the results, flattened primers with lower velocity.

 

[gruesomenewsom]

I work off the lyman manual, and a friend of mine (who works at lyman writing the book-his pic is in the manual actually) told me primers can vary pressures by as much as 3000#. I would definitely want a second source to take that as gospel, but he concluded hat saying as long as I don't load max pressures (which I don't intend to) I should be alright. He says the only time they really see problems with changing primers is full-house magnum loads. Then changing primers can cause big problems.