WonderNine
member
All this .357SIG, .357Mag, .38 Super and 10mm talk without one mention of 9X23. 
comparison between 357mag and 357sig?
- Thread starter arinvolvo
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Wondernine, that is PRECISELY what I was getting at when I said
9x21, 9x23, 38 Super +p, and such. The only 'disqualifier' I can see with the 9x23 is it needs a longer action than 9x19/357sig/40 to be what it can be.....
In the right gun 9x23 is the equal of 357 magnum, something the 357 sig will never do.
9x21, 9x23, 38 Super +p, and such. The only 'disqualifier' I can see with the 9x23 is it needs a longer action than 9x19/357sig/40 to be what it can be.....
In the right gun 9x23 is the equal of 357 magnum, something the 357 sig will never do.
cratz2
Member
All this .357SIG, .357Mag, .38 Super and 10mm talk without one mention of 9X23.
I mentioned the 9x23... four times... but nobody pays attention to me...
9x23
The 9x23 and the 38 supercomp are almost equal in terminal velocity. There are subtle differences such as the brass, in the cartridge design but looking from the chrongraph end of a shooting session I don't think you could tell the difference.
I am going to jump into opinion here but if I was looking for a non ramped service/carry weapon in this caliber class the 9x23 would be my first choice. It is a fine cartridge and doesn't need the fully suported barrel like the .38 supercomp does, and has the benefit of factory loaded ammunition.
Where the .38 supercomp has an advantage is a lot of shooters and gunsmiths have spent 1000's of hours tweaking and working with this cartridge, the old 38 super didn't start out being what it became it took a lot of work from a whole community of shooters (many of them competition shooters) to refine it to the current .38 supercomp. This took years of work and I am going out on a limb here but my guess is only the 45ACP and the 38 Special/357 Mag have had a greater level of effort in developing the platform. ( note: pure scientific wild a## guess on my part )
Back on the 357 Sig, its strengths are also its weaknesses, it isn't well recieved in the competetion shooter community. This I contribute to the platform it was designed for: short auto's. None of these weapons are considered ( right/wrong or indifferent) competetion guns. Further its parent brass set it up for stiff competition, 40 Cal, there are a whole lot 10mm fans, and the 10mm outperforms it across the board, and I don't think there will be many converts. Where is does make sense is somebody who has a couple of 40SW pistols doesn't want to buy another gun, and has an itch to put in a different barrel, and I see it gaining popularity on that front.
For the 357 Sig to be embraced by that cometetion community maybe it needs to be available in a different guns and be able to make major. Maybe Sig should start making a P210 in this cartridge that is redesigned so it doesn't bite big hands. ( OK sacrilege I know).
The 9x23 and the 38 supercomp are almost equal in terminal velocity. There are subtle differences such as the brass, in the cartridge design but looking from the chrongraph end of a shooting session I don't think you could tell the difference.
I am going to jump into opinion here but if I was looking for a non ramped service/carry weapon in this caliber class the 9x23 would be my first choice. It is a fine cartridge and doesn't need the fully suported barrel like the .38 supercomp does, and has the benefit of factory loaded ammunition.
Where the .38 supercomp has an advantage is a lot of shooters and gunsmiths have spent 1000's of hours tweaking and working with this cartridge, the old 38 super didn't start out being what it became it took a lot of work from a whole community of shooters (many of them competition shooters) to refine it to the current .38 supercomp. This took years of work and I am going out on a limb here but my guess is only the 45ACP and the 38 Special/357 Mag have had a greater level of effort in developing the platform. ( note: pure scientific wild a## guess on my part )
Back on the 357 Sig, its strengths are also its weaknesses, it isn't well recieved in the competetion shooter community. This I contribute to the platform it was designed for: short auto's. None of these weapons are considered ( right/wrong or indifferent) competetion guns. Further its parent brass set it up for stiff competition, 40 Cal, there are a whole lot 10mm fans, and the 10mm outperforms it across the board, and I don't think there will be many converts. Where is does make sense is somebody who has a couple of 40SW pistols doesn't want to buy another gun, and has an itch to put in a different barrel, and I see it gaining popularity on that front.
For the 357 Sig to be embraced by that cometetion community maybe it needs to be available in a different guns and be able to make major. Maybe Sig should start making a P210 in this cartridge that is redesigned so it doesn't bite big hands. ( OK sacrilege I know).
Can't remember the last time I saw any of these calibers on a gun shop shelf.
9x21
9x23
.38 Super
Don't know of anyone making guns in any of these calibers except the last--and only one maker for that one.
When it comes to the top end of 9mm performance in an autopistol cartridge, the .357 Sig is the only game in town for the moment.
9x21
9x23
.38 Super
Don't know of anyone making guns in any of these calibers except the last--and only one maker for that one.
When it comes to the top end of 9mm performance in an autopistol cartridge, the .357 Sig is the only game in town for the moment.
cratz2
Member
Concerning my mention of the 9x23, and to a slightly lesser extent the 38 Super, it was in response to someone mentioning a custom 1911 in 357 SIG... that just doesn't even make a teeny tiny bit of sense when you have an equally hot and effective option that will absolutely feed more smoothly and will hold more rounds in the same package.
I think the reason the 38 Super, 9x23 and even the 357 SIG aren't more popular is that people that most people that don't have a blind bias against the 9x19 see it as being very nearly equally effective, while being much more widely available, possibly easier to shoot and holding more rounds.
As I've said on other threads, with two identically placed shots, it's extremely unlikely that a 125 Gr Ranger fired at 1,340 fps is going to drop an assailant immediately while a 127 Gr Ranger from a 9mm fired at 1,180 fps is going to bounce off as if nothing happened. Is there a difference in velocity? Yes. Can that difference possibly result in two different outcomes? Of course. Is is possible that a deer hit by a 30-06 from 300 yards away can die just as quickly as a deer hit by a 30-06 from 200 yards away? Yep.
I'm just saying that there is a point of diminishing returns in velocity and energy dump. And while if it's my assssss on the line, sure... I want the most velocity and the most energy I can reliably get onto target quickly. But I think that point of diminishing returns is slightly in the favor of the hotter 9mm loads rather than the 357 SIG.
Again, this is not meant as a slur against the 357 SIG cartridge. The same applies when comparing the 357 SIG to the 357 Magnum firing 125 gr rounds. There are some that have indirectly stated that they would feel very comfortable relying on the traditional 357 Magnum firing 125 Gr bullets but would scoff at the 357 SIG firing the same bullets. In my opinion, it's just kinda silly to dismiss one cartridge because of 50 or 100 fps. Hell, in some ammunition, there's that much variation from one batch to the next.
I think the reason the 38 Super, 9x23 and even the 357 SIG aren't more popular is that people that most people that don't have a blind bias against the 9x19 see it as being very nearly equally effective, while being much more widely available, possibly easier to shoot and holding more rounds.
As I've said on other threads, with two identically placed shots, it's extremely unlikely that a 125 Gr Ranger fired at 1,340 fps is going to drop an assailant immediately while a 127 Gr Ranger from a 9mm fired at 1,180 fps is going to bounce off as if nothing happened. Is there a difference in velocity? Yes. Can that difference possibly result in two different outcomes? Of course. Is is possible that a deer hit by a 30-06 from 300 yards away can die just as quickly as a deer hit by a 30-06 from 200 yards away? Yep.
I'm just saying that there is a point of diminishing returns in velocity and energy dump. And while if it's my assssss on the line, sure... I want the most velocity and the most energy I can reliably get onto target quickly. But I think that point of diminishing returns is slightly in the favor of the hotter 9mm loads rather than the 357 SIG.
Again, this is not meant as a slur against the 357 SIG cartridge. The same applies when comparing the 357 SIG to the 357 Magnum firing 125 gr rounds. There are some that have indirectly stated that they would feel very comfortable relying on the traditional 357 Magnum firing 125 Gr bullets but would scoff at the 357 SIG firing the same bullets. In my opinion, it's just kinda silly to dismiss one cartridge because of 50 or 100 fps. Hell, in some ammunition, there's that much variation from one batch to the next.
fastbolt
Member
In response to the 9X23 cartridge ...
If more firearms & ammunition were produced, I'd be interested in trying it. At this point in my life, I'm just not interested in cartridges for the sake of the cartridge ... not unless they're offered in a reasonable range of platforms which serve various purposes for ME, and the ammunition is offered in a sufficient variety, at least for both defenisve use and reasonably priced range practice. I gave up handloading years ago. I think the 9X23 has some great potential, though ...
I think I'll end up getting a 10mm, though, before I get anything chambered in 9X23 ... especially if S&W suddenly decides to offer a Scandium aluminum framed TDA 10mm.
Hey, they MIGHT ... ... it's been reported that they're going to offer at least their 4040PD chambered in 357SIG. It could happen.
I'm also interested in the development of the heavier bullets in .357 Magnum, which were just starting to become interesting about the time we transitioned away from revolvers. While my personal choice in defensive ammunition in full magnum loadings has always been 125gr & 140gr bullet weights (both the Remington SJHP bullet) the idea of a heavier bullet which would reliably expand in reasonable defensive conditions has always interested me.
If more firearms & ammunition were produced, I'd be interested in trying it. At this point in my life, I'm just not interested in cartridges for the sake of the cartridge ... not unless they're offered in a reasonable range of platforms which serve various purposes for ME, and the ammunition is offered in a sufficient variety, at least for both defenisve use and reasonably priced range practice. I gave up handloading years ago. I think the 9X23 has some great potential, though ...
I think I'll end up getting a 10mm, though, before I get anything chambered in 9X23 ... especially if S&W suddenly decides to offer a Scandium aluminum framed TDA 10mm.
Hey, they MIGHT ...
... it's been reported that they're going to offer at least their 4040PD chambered in 357SIG. It could happen.I'm also interested in the development of the heavier bullets in .357 Magnum, which were just starting to become interesting about the time we transitioned away from revolvers. While my personal choice in defensive ammunition in full magnum loadings has always been 125gr & 140gr bullet weights (both the Remington SJHP bullet) the idea of a heavier bullet which would reliably expand in reasonable defensive conditions has always interested me.
cratz2
Member
9mm:
Triton 115gr TQTR9HVA 1,440 FPS out of a Glock 19
Corbon 115gr 1,424 FPS out or a Glock 17
Federal 115gr 9BPLE 1,357 FPS out of Glock 17
Remington 115gr R9MM4N 1,329 out of a Glock 17
357SIG:
Winchester RA357SIGT 1,343 FPS out of a Glock 32
Remington GSB357SA 1,331 FPS out of a Glock 32
Federal Premium P357S1 1,326 FPS out of a Glock 32
Corbon 125gr jhp 1,428 FPS out of a Glock 32
These are actually chronographed velocities from ammolab.com... I just still fail to see how someone can say that the hottest 9mms can't possibly compare to 357 SIG self defense loads... I mean, we are comparing 115 Gr loads from a 9mm to 125 Gr loads from the 357 SIG but those are generally considered the 'hottest loads' from each resepective cartridge. Unless you look at Triton 115 gr 357SIG loads from Triton or Corbon, or the Pro Load, (which while they turn out fine ammo and they are in my Kahr as I type this, they aren't a major manufacturer), the hottest 9mm the hottest 357 SIG seem to be roughly comparable.
Seriously, I respect the 357 SIG. It's a viable option on it's own and if someone owns a gun in 40S&W and wants a 357 SIG, certainly more power to them... literally! But some folks seem to think that if someone takes three center of mass hits from a 357SIG, they're just going to drop right where they stand and not even utter a single word while the same guy on the same day hit with three hot 124 to 127 Gr 9mm rounds with identical placement is simply going to grow even stronger and more evil... that's just foolin' yourself.
I'd personally really be surprised if scientific testing could be done over, say 500 incidents, that there's more than a 3% difference between the 357 SIG and the +P+ 9mm... comparing either Rangers to Rangers or Remington R9MM4N vs. R357 and that would be within the 3% margin of error.
Sean Smith
Member
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You are off by a few.
Colt
Kimber
Springfield Armory
EAA
WonderNine
member
EAA makes a .38 Super? 
@cratz2
I totally agree with pretty much everything you've said. And aside from the "factory" +P+ 9mm loadings, there's alot of hot subgun ammo in this caliber that is basically loaded identical to a factory .357SIG and sometimes more. The loss in magazine capacity over 9mm becomes more apparent when you take these things into consideration.
@cratz2
I totally agree with pretty much everything you've said. And aside from the "factory" +P+ 9mm loadings, there's alot of hot subgun ammo in this caliber that is basically loaded identical to a factory .357SIG and sometimes more. The loss in magazine capacity over 9mm becomes more apparent when you take these things into consideration.
Sean Smith
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Yeah, EAA has several Witness models in .38 Super.
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