exoduster18
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- Oct 7, 2005
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Brian and Kurt M - I entirely agree with you guys on the legal loophole and the test case. I don't want to be it. I'll just wait till I'm 21 and do everything legally.
Concealed Carry in PA?
- Thread starter exoduster18
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Also, on asking the state AG's office...
I spoke with someone from their office once. He was THE GUY in their office who handled firearms cases. He had the answers.
I asked him about tranferring a gun that I had gotten with my C&R liscense to my dad without having him fill out PA's little state handgun registration form (whatever they call it). He didn't know what I was talking about. The response was something like "What form? Other than the 4473? It has been awhile since I bought a handgun so maybe they changed it."
Bear in mind that I was told by the other people I spoke to at the AG's office that the man I was speaking to was supposedly "THE GUY".
And while we are at it, never ask the police for clarification on a gun law. Save yourself the effort.
I spoke with someone from their office once. He was THE GUY in their office who handled firearms cases. He had the answers.
I asked him about tranferring a gun that I had gotten with my C&R liscense to my dad without having him fill out PA's little state handgun registration form (whatever they call it). He didn't know what I was talking about. The response was something like "What form? Other than the 4473? It has been awhile since I bought a handgun so maybe they changed it."
Bear in mind that I was told by the other people I spoke to at the AG's office that the man I was speaking to was supposedly "THE GUY".
And while we are at it, never ask the police for clarification on a gun law. Save yourself the effort.
exoduster18
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- Oct 7, 2005
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Would it be easier for me just to cal the State Police and ask? I'm thinking that they could define it better to me......
The usual interpretation of the law is that open carry on foot is legal in PA. There are no laws against carrying openly as long as you do not enter a vehicle or conceal the gun. Therefore, you don't need any permit to carry openly on foot.
The part of the law where it says it's illegal to carry concealed and/or in a vehicle has a specific exemption, for people hunting, fishing, etc., with a sportsman's permit. Exception (9) and (10) do not say "only for the purpose of open carry," "only for the purpose of transporting the firearm," or any such phrasing. They are an exemption from the entire text of subsection (a), just as much as any of the other ones are.
Exception (1) is for "Constables, sheriffs, prison or jail wardens, or their deputies, policemen of this Commonwealth or its political subdivisions, or other law-enforcement officers." Does that mean a police officer must obtain a concealed carry permit in order to transport their duty sidearm in a squad car, or to carry a concealed BUG? No, they are exempt from the entire text of subsection (a).
On the other hand, exception (4) does have additional text. It says "Any persons engaged in target shooting with rifle, pistol, or revolver, if such persons are at or are going to or from their places of assembly or target practice and if, while going to or from their places of assembly or target practice, the cartridges or shells are carried in a separate container and the rifle, pistol or revolver is unloaded." Once again, exceptions (9) and (10) do not have any such language, and thus they apply to the entire text of subsection (a).
The entire text of statute 6106 is as follows:
§ 6106. Firearms not to be carried without a license.
(a) Offense defined.--Any person who carries a firearm in any vehicle or any person who carries a firearm concealed on or about his person, except in his place of abode or fixed place of business, without a valid and lawfully issued license under this chapter commits a felony of the third degree.
(b) Exceptions.--The provisions of subsection (a) shall not apply to:
1. Constables, sheriffs, prison or jail wardens, or their deputies, policemen of this Commonwealth or its political subdivisions, or other law-enforcement officers.
2. Members of the army, navy or marine corps of the United States or of the National Guard or organized reserves when on duty.
3. The regularly enrolled members of any organization duly organized to purchase or receive such weapons from the United States or from this Commonwealth.
4. Any persons engaged in target shooting with rifle, pistol, or revolver, if such persons are at or are going to or from their places of assembly or target practice and if, while going to or from their places of assembly or target practice, the cartridges or shells are carried in a separate container and the rifle, pistol or revolver is unloaded.
5. Officers or employees of the United States duly authorized to carry a concealed firearm.
6. Agents, messengers and other employees of common carriers, banks, or business firms, whose duties require them to protect moneys, valuables and other property in the discharge of such duties.
7. Any person engaged in the business of manufacturing, repairing, or dealing in firearms, or the agent or representative of any such person, having in his possession, using or carrying a firearm in the usual or ordinary course of such business.
8. Any person while carrying a firearm unloaded and in a secure wrapper from the place of purchase to his home or place of business, or to a place of repair or back to his home or place of business, or in moving from one place of abode or business to another or from his home to a vacation or recreational home or dwelling or back, or to recover stolen property under section 6111.1(b)(4) (relating to Pennsylvania State Police) or to a location to which the person has been directed to surrender firearms under 23 Pa.C.S. § 6108 (relating to relief) or back upon return of the surrendered firearm.
9. Persons licensed to hunt, take furbearers or fish in this Commonwealth, if such persons are actually hunting, taking furbearers or fishing or are going to the places where they desire to hunt, take furbearers or fish or returning from such places.
10. Persons training dogs, if such persons are actually training dogs during the regular training season.
11. Any person while carrying a firearm in any vehicle, which person possesses a valid and lawfully issued license for that firearm which has been issued under the laws of the United States or any other state.
(c) Sportsman's firearm permit.--
1. Before any exception shall be granted under paragraph (b)(9) or (10) of this section to any person 18 years of age or older licensed to hunt, trap or fish or who has been issued a permit relating to hunting dogs, such person shall, at the time of securing his hunting, furtaking or fishing license or any time after such license has been issued, secure a sportsman's firearm permit from the county treasurer. The sportsman's firearm permit shall be issued immediately and be valid throughout this Commonwealth for a period of five years from the date of issue for any legal firearm, when carried in conjunction with a valid hunting, furtaking or fishing license or permit relating to hunting dogs. The sportsman's firearm permit shall be in triplicate on a form to be furnished by the Pennsylvania State Police. The original permit shall be delivered to the person, and the first copy thereof, within seven days, shall be forwarded to the Commissioner of the Pennsylvania State Police by the county treasurer. The second copy shall be retained by the county treasurer for a period of two years from the date of expiration. The county treasurer shall be entitled to collect a fee of not more than $6 for each such permit issued, which shall include the cost of any official form. The Pennsylvania State Police may recover from the county treasurer the cost of any such form, but may not charge more than $1 for each official permit form furnished to the county treasurer.
2. Any person who sells or attempts to sell a sportsman's firearm permit for a fee in excess of that amount fixed under this subsection commits a summary offense.
(d) Revocation of registration.--Any registration of a firearm under subsection (c) of this section may be revoked by the county treasurer who issued it, upon written notice to the holder thereof.
Avoiding trouble with the law and not being a test case is all well and good, but I'd rather be alive and have all my brains and body parts in the correct place, than stay out of legal trouble. Considering that, according to the PA UCR, Butler City (I live in Butler Township, but I go in and out of Butler City almost every day) has a bunch more total assaults and a ton more aggravated assaults per population than Philly, I think that personally, I'm better off taking my chances with the cops and lawyers than I am taking my chances with everyone else.
In any case, I just sent an e-mail to the AG's office for clarification, so hopefully I'll get something better than "I dunno."
"Hello, I would like a clarification of the exceptions to subsection (a) of statute 6106. I have been told that the sportsman's firearm permit is only valid for the purpose of open carry of a pistol while hunting, fishing, taking furbearers, or training dogs, or while going to or from a place where one of these will be done. However, neither the text of sections (b)(9) and (b)(10), nor the text of (c)(1), make any reference to the permit only being valid for the purpose of open carry. It appears that someone excepted under subsection (b)(9) or (b)(10) is excepted from the entire text of subsection (a), and is thus permitted to carry a concealed firearm while hunting, etc. Thank you in advance for your reply."
The part of the law where it says it's illegal to carry concealed and/or in a vehicle has a specific exemption, for people hunting, fishing, etc., with a sportsman's permit. Exception (9) and (10) do not say "only for the purpose of open carry," "only for the purpose of transporting the firearm," or any such phrasing. They are an exemption from the entire text of subsection (a), just as much as any of the other ones are.
Exception (1) is for "Constables, sheriffs, prison or jail wardens, or their deputies, policemen of this Commonwealth or its political subdivisions, or other law-enforcement officers." Does that mean a police officer must obtain a concealed carry permit in order to transport their duty sidearm in a squad car, or to carry a concealed BUG? No, they are exempt from the entire text of subsection (a).
On the other hand, exception (4) does have additional text. It says "Any persons engaged in target shooting with rifle, pistol, or revolver, if such persons are at or are going to or from their places of assembly or target practice and if, while going to or from their places of assembly or target practice, the cartridges or shells are carried in a separate container and the rifle, pistol or revolver is unloaded." Once again, exceptions (9) and (10) do not have any such language, and thus they apply to the entire text of subsection (a).
The entire text of statute 6106 is as follows:
§ 6106. Firearms not to be carried without a license.
(a) Offense defined.--Any person who carries a firearm in any vehicle or any person who carries a firearm concealed on or about his person, except in his place of abode or fixed place of business, without a valid and lawfully issued license under this chapter commits a felony of the third degree.
(b) Exceptions.--The provisions of subsection (a) shall not apply to:
1. Constables, sheriffs, prison or jail wardens, or their deputies, policemen of this Commonwealth or its political subdivisions, or other law-enforcement officers.
2. Members of the army, navy or marine corps of the United States or of the National Guard or organized reserves when on duty.
3. The regularly enrolled members of any organization duly organized to purchase or receive such weapons from the United States or from this Commonwealth.
4. Any persons engaged in target shooting with rifle, pistol, or revolver, if such persons are at or are going to or from their places of assembly or target practice and if, while going to or from their places of assembly or target practice, the cartridges or shells are carried in a separate container and the rifle, pistol or revolver is unloaded.
5. Officers or employees of the United States duly authorized to carry a concealed firearm.
6. Agents, messengers and other employees of common carriers, banks, or business firms, whose duties require them to protect moneys, valuables and other property in the discharge of such duties.
7. Any person engaged in the business of manufacturing, repairing, or dealing in firearms, or the agent or representative of any such person, having in his possession, using or carrying a firearm in the usual or ordinary course of such business.
8. Any person while carrying a firearm unloaded and in a secure wrapper from the place of purchase to his home or place of business, or to a place of repair or back to his home or place of business, or in moving from one place of abode or business to another or from his home to a vacation or recreational home or dwelling or back, or to recover stolen property under section 6111.1(b)(4) (relating to Pennsylvania State Police) or to a location to which the person has been directed to surrender firearms under 23 Pa.C.S. § 6108 (relating to relief) or back upon return of the surrendered firearm.
9. Persons licensed to hunt, take furbearers or fish in this Commonwealth, if such persons are actually hunting, taking furbearers or fishing or are going to the places where they desire to hunt, take furbearers or fish or returning from such places.
10. Persons training dogs, if such persons are actually training dogs during the regular training season.
11. Any person while carrying a firearm in any vehicle, which person possesses a valid and lawfully issued license for that firearm which has been issued under the laws of the United States or any other state.
(c) Sportsman's firearm permit.--
1. Before any exception shall be granted under paragraph (b)(9) or (10) of this section to any person 18 years of age or older licensed to hunt, trap or fish or who has been issued a permit relating to hunting dogs, such person shall, at the time of securing his hunting, furtaking or fishing license or any time after such license has been issued, secure a sportsman's firearm permit from the county treasurer. The sportsman's firearm permit shall be issued immediately and be valid throughout this Commonwealth for a period of five years from the date of issue for any legal firearm, when carried in conjunction with a valid hunting, furtaking or fishing license or permit relating to hunting dogs. The sportsman's firearm permit shall be in triplicate on a form to be furnished by the Pennsylvania State Police. The original permit shall be delivered to the person, and the first copy thereof, within seven days, shall be forwarded to the Commissioner of the Pennsylvania State Police by the county treasurer. The second copy shall be retained by the county treasurer for a period of two years from the date of expiration. The county treasurer shall be entitled to collect a fee of not more than $6 for each such permit issued, which shall include the cost of any official form. The Pennsylvania State Police may recover from the county treasurer the cost of any such form, but may not charge more than $1 for each official permit form furnished to the county treasurer.
2. Any person who sells or attempts to sell a sportsman's firearm permit for a fee in excess of that amount fixed under this subsection commits a summary offense.
(d) Revocation of registration.--Any registration of a firearm under subsection (c) of this section may be revoked by the county treasurer who issued it, upon written notice to the holder thereof.
Avoiding trouble with the law and not being a test case is all well and good, but I'd rather be alive and have all my brains and body parts in the correct place, than stay out of legal trouble. Considering that, according to the PA UCR, Butler City (I live in Butler Township, but I go in and out of Butler City almost every day) has a bunch more total assaults and a ton more aggravated assaults per population than Philly, I think that personally, I'm better off taking my chances with the cops and lawyers than I am taking my chances with everyone else.
In any case, I just sent an e-mail to the AG's office for clarification, so hopefully I'll get something better than "I dunno."
"Hello, I would like a clarification of the exceptions to subsection (a) of statute 6106. I have been told that the sportsman's firearm permit is only valid for the purpose of open carry of a pistol while hunting, fishing, taking furbearers, or training dogs, or while going to or from a place where one of these will be done. However, neither the text of sections (b)(9) and (b)(10), nor the text of (c)(1), make any reference to the permit only being valid for the purpose of open carry. It appears that someone excepted under subsection (b)(9) or (b)(10) is excepted from the entire text of subsection (a), and is thus permitted to carry a concealed firearm while hunting, etc. Thank you in advance for your reply."
Rezin
Member
exoduster18 said:
Actually, SP have little if anythign to do with it in PA. Call your county sheriffs office, they'll have the answers for ya
Steve in PA
Member
If you think PSP lacks knowledge, the Sheriff's Dept is even farther behind the curve.
exoduster18
Member
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- Oct 7, 2005
- Messages
- 328
I won't bother with she sheriff's department of where I from because the sheriff's department doesn't know/do diddly squat. I'm not bashing LEO's or the people who work for the county sheriff's department, but they tend to not do enough when needed. Not incompetent, just lazy.
I also happen to personally know a state police officer so I'll ask him.
Thanks again for the replies.
I also happen to personally know a state police officer so I'll ask him.
Thanks again for the replies.
Steve in PA
Member
goon said:Steve in PA - You sound like another man who tried to get an answer to a simple question.
No, I've just read and heard about some of the "info" they claim to have knowledge of. They don't.
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