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Concealed means concealed

Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by FNMatt, May 1, 2011.

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  1. FNMatt

    FNMatt Member

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    I've been seeing the phrase "concealed means concealed" quite a bit on the forum in regards to carrying a CCW into places that would rather not have weapons inside their buildings. Legalities of carry and signeage aside, do you folks thinks it is moral (ethical) to carry a weapon into a place that is known to not want weapons inside, even though they won't know? Why or why not?

    For example, I noticed that a book store I frequented hung a 'no concealed weapons sign' on their door. Even though the sign was not SC-law compliant and did not carry the weight of law, I have since stopped carrying there (or shopping there) as a matter of principle. Though I'm not one of the "guns are scary/evil" crowd, I do like to know who is carrying and give permission to carry on my property, and respect that for others and their businesses to allow or not allow me to do so. Just curious what you folks think about the idea.
     
    Last edited: May 1, 2011
  2. MarkDozier

    MarkDozier Member.

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    I carry into places like that, but only to tell manager I will not be shopping there and tedlling everyoner I know to not shop there, becuase of thier policey.
     
  3. azyogi

    azyogi Member

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    They put up the sign, I stop going there. Vote with my feet, or wallet whichever gets their attention. Most of those that chose to post sich signs went out of business, or took down the signs.
     
  4. BADUNAME37

    BADUNAME37 Member

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    I do not carry in any places where it is not legal for me to carry.

    If someone happens to be watching people coming and going and they are using something that makes seeing through your clothes possible, you may be watched -- even when you don't think you are!

    Perhaps I am wrong, perhaps there is no technology short of the new body scanners at the airports that can see through clothes. My take on it is if they are watching you with infrared technology, your body heat will be given off and the outline of a gun would be visible as your body heat is not readily going through the solid object.

    Please correct me if I am mistaken in this.
     
  5. Owen Sparks

    Owen Sparks member

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    On Private property the owner makes the rules. You either abide by them or don't come in. It is that simple. From a moral standpoint breaking a posted rule on someone elses property is a form of trespass, sort of like lighting up in a no smoking area or talking loud in in the same book store after being told to be quiet.

    The only recourse is the threat to take your business elswhere, and that can work especially if enough people complain.
     
  6. Shadow 7D

    Shadow 7D Member

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  7. BADUNAME37

    BADUNAME37 Member

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    Good one!
     
  8. TexasRifleman

    TexasRifleman Moderator Emeritus

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    As long as it's legal. Is it moral? In my opinion it's very immoral for someone to want to deny me the right to protect myself and my family so whether it's immoral for me to ignore their wishes doesn't matter, they are way further on the moral low ground than I would ever be since I wish them no harm, and they clearly don't care about my well being at all.
     
  9. Owen Sparks

    Owen Sparks member

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    What about your right to free speech? Plenty of people have been kicked out of book stores for talking loud. What about your right to worship God as you choose? You would not expect to hold church service in the book store would you? How about the right to assemble? Try having a big party in the book store and see what happens. The Bill of Rights is a limit on GOVERNMENT, not on private property rights. They can make any rules they want. The only absolute right you have on private property is the right to leave.
     
  10. TexasRifleman

    TexasRifleman Moderator Emeritus

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    Private property owners who open their property to the public can control what happens on their property if it changes their use or enjoyment of that property.

    If a property owner opens his property to the public his enjoyment and free use of that property is not harmed if I carry a concealed firearm legally any more than if I wear blue underwear onto his property.

    That is the distinction from a moral perspective. He might not LIKE blue underwear but is he harmed if I wear some? He might not LIKE guns but is he harmed if I keep mine concealed?

    The answer to both of those questions is no, I am not interfering with HIS right to enjoy the use of his property.

    You said
    OK, let me pose this. Suppose it's well known in a town that a store owner is against gay marriage. If a married gay couple go into his store anyway are they trespassing? According to your argument here they would be. But if the store owner isn't AWARE that they are a married gay couple is he harmed? Is his enjoyment of his property damaged in any way?

    That's not really the case any more. The Civil Rights Act, Americans with Disabilities Act, and others have allowed the government to overrule the wishes of property owners many times.

    All that said, do I WANT to go onto property where the owner has made it clear he doesn't want guns? Absolutely not, and I rarely do. But, if for some reason I must I have no moral issues with it at all, as long as it's legal.
     
  11. FNMatt

    FNMatt Member

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    Owen, i agree with you. I pretty much figured everyone felt this way, it seems obvious. But the phrase "concealed means concealed" keeps popping up, so hence my question...
     
  12. jeffegg2

    jeffegg2 Member

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    I think the question I would ask is:

    Is it ethical to ask people who are law abiding people to stop protecting
    themselves and their families while they are at my store?:rolleyes:
     
  13. Loosedhorse

    Loosedhorse member

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    Depends.

    Let's suppose that your town has two grocery stores across the street from each other, both identical except one says "No guns!" and the other says "Legally carried guns welcome." I think it would be dishonest and unnecessary to carry into the "No guns" store. So, unethical.

    However, suppose that every grocery store within a certain distance from me (what's prohibitive, with gas prices these days--20 miles? 40?) is a "no guns" store. And let's further suppose that the stores have no force of law. Then shopping there armed would still be dishonest, but might be necessary--you cannot practically shop elsewhere. So, not unethical.

    To look at it another way, the owner of a store who is refusing legal carry is denying you access for exercising a basic civil right. Protest. Carry signs. Take a page from the civil rights movement if you will, and organize sit ins where you go in, clog the register lines, but don't buy anything. Write your reps that store owners should no more be allowed to deny legal carry than members of specific races or religions from their stores.

    Or open your own store.

    There are levels of ethics. Honesty is a great principle, but there may be times when dishonesty is necessary. But even better than dishonesty is honest protest--even if it is done at significant cost.
     
  14. hogcowboy

    hogcowboy Member

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    Would you still visit a friend that asked you not to bring a weapon onto his or her property? I know the argument...you just wouldn't be friends anymore. Well sometimes you still want to be friends so do you abide by their wishes?
     
  15. Owen Sparks

    Owen Sparks member

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    The store owner may think that allowing people to carry loaded guns into his store might cause a dangerous situation that he could be held liable for. I am not saying that it will, but a lot of people feel that way as evidence by all the restrictive gun laws. If the owner does not want loaded guns brought onto his property for WHATEVER reason, right or wrong it is his perogitive. If you don't like it, then don't go there.

    If you wan't to argue your right to carry concealed on PUBLICLY owned property like streets and sidewalks that you pay taxes on, I will support you 100%.
     
    Last edited: May 1, 2011
  16. smallbore

    smallbore Member

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    I too am in agreement with Owen.
     
  17. Ryanxia

    Ryanxia Member

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    I haven't noticed any signs first hand. I do hear stories from THR and stay away from stores that have those policies like Toys R Us and Jerad's Jewelers.

    We don't have a lot of variety in my area so if it was a place I needed to go to I would ignore otherwise stop giving them my business. Either way I would let them know how I feel. (In my state signs/policies do not carry the weight of the law)
     
    Last edited: May 1, 2011
  18. Grey_Mana

    Grey_Mana Member

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    "On Private property the owner makes the rules."

    ah, the young pups. Imainge if the sign said "No [insert your race here] allowed." That would be discriminatory and illegal. It would be an act of courage to exercise your legal rights, shop there and throw their prejudice in their face. Bigotry against people who want to excerise their civil rights is the same, regardless of which civil right the haters want to violate. "no guns allowed" is just as vile and stupid as "Jobs! No [insert anything about yourself which has nothing to do with being an employee]". by legal means and legal persuasion, we will relegate anti-gun fetisism to the dustbin of history with all the other hate groups.
     
  19. TexasRifleman

    TexasRifleman Moderator Emeritus

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    Sorry but sometimes reality steps in and hypotheticals go out the window.

    If I'm out in the middle of nowhere and I need to buy a tank of gas and the only gas station that's open has a non legally binding sign that says "No Guns" guess what.... I'm gonna buy some gas, he's not gonna know I'm armed, and my morals will still be intact.
     
  20. MachIVshooter

    MachIVshooter Member

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    Into a person's private residence? Unethical. They absolutely get to dictate what is and is not prohibited within their home, behavior and items alike.

    A private business that is open to the public? Perfectly ethical. By being open to the public, you give up the right to dictate every aspect of behavior that a person may engage in or items they may possess. As far as I'm concerned, if that person may legally posess it outside on the public sidewalk, it is not unethical to bring it inside the public private property. The only exception to this is if the owner employs effective screening processes to prevent anyone from being armed (detectors), has a way to deal with someone who comes in anyway (security), is explicitly willing to accept full responsibility for my safety and that of my family, and be 100% liable if he is unable to provide that.

    Barring that, my right to protect myself and my family in a public place supersedes his/her right to dictate my behavior and items I possess.

    Carrying concealed is most certainly not the same as smoking in a non smoking section or being loud in a place that quiet is expected, because my carrying of that weapon will not adversely affect anyone who does not attempt to hurt me or my family.
     
  21. Neverwinter

    Neverwinter Member

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    ;) :D

    The difference is that carrying is a behavior, not an immutable aspect of who you are. You can stop carrying a gun, but you can't stop being Irish.
     
  22. TexasRifleman

    TexasRifleman Moderator Emeritus

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    If a store owner has a sign up that says "No Gays" and he believes that people can stop being gay is he still OK with that sign? Are ignorance and prejudice acceptable as long as it's a property owner doing it?

    If ignorance and prejudice are not acceptable reasons for him to post a "No Gays" sign why are they acceptable reasons for him to post a "No Guns" sign?

    It seems to me that the act of opening your property to public access for a business removes some of the iron clad property rights that would be enjoyed by someone who didn't invite the public at large onto their property. That's an important distinction. We're not talking about someone's home here, we're talking about a business (unless you know someone who actually posts a no guns sign at their house).
     
  23. leadaddict

    leadaddict Member

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    I don't have an ethical problem carrying into any place open to the public where it is legal.
     
  24. MtnSpur

    MtnSpur Member

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    As you know Mr TR, sir, we're Texans and not typically subjected to some of the behaviour exhibited by other states :D . I reckon there are still some gas stations out here in West Texas where one can get gas, an oil change and a box of .45's with a smile and free coffee. Heck our small town grocery store sells ammo right beside the cigarettes, chew and lottery tickets :) . Gotta love it.
     
  25. Neverwinter

    Neverwinter Member

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    No, because his belief that people can stop being gay is not based on evidence and contrary to the medical and psychological profession.
     
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