Would you conceal carry in this situation?

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I don't think I'd miss an opportunity for my inner Puck to come out and play. I think I'd search out the manager and say something like, "You know, I don't care for those big bulky Beretta 92s either but don't you think it's a bit much to ban them from your store? Are you a Glock, 1911 or a revolver fan?" If he says "That means all handguns." I'll say, "Oh dear, seriously? I guess I'll have to take my business elsewhere. Good day."

Or better yet, if you go in and get made and they ask you to leave, you can say, "This isn't a 92fs, it's a 1911A1."
 
If I could not do business with every business that didn't have some conflict with some aspect of my beliefs, there would be very few places where I could do business

I'm noticing that I tend to agree with a lot of your views, Double-Naught. And that comment is no exception. If you are properly carrying concealed, you can happily ignore any such signs. They mean nothing.

The person who avoids shopping at an establishment that posts a "no-carry" sign is someone cutting off their nose to spite their face. Who knows why the sign was posted or who ordered it? Certainly wasn't the clerk behind the counter. Probably - and this is entirely consistent with my own personal experience - the CEO is a control freak and anti-gun.

Blow off the sign and carry at will. If someone in the store notices that you are carrying, then you are not concealing properly. If you care about freedom and personal choice, then you should relish the opportunity to flout their bogus signage and make your CCW a real statement by ignoring it.

Only a sheep would bow his head and obey the dictat.
 
Anyplace that would not respect my right to CCW, I would not patronize. If I had no options, which can be the case, then I would ignore the illegal sign.

Besides I don't own a baretta.
 
If my state law states that I can't carry somwhere then I wont, I dont want to loose my permit. In my state, Utah, we have these signs but they do not hold the weight of the law so I do ignor them in Utah.
 
Even if it is legal to carry there you are carrying against the wishes of the owner and are taking the low road. If you tell me that I cannot have something on your personal property and I do I am disrespecting you. This is the same thing.

Situations like this are why I believe that all signs should have force of law. You refuse to respect their rights as property owners. Go somewhere else if you must carry.
 
Why would you go to a place that does not support your point of view?

EVERY business has competition. If this right to carry is SO important to you, then you should be willing to go a little out of your way to support the businesses that support your view; otherwise, IMO, you're a hypocrite.

As I noted above, if I could not do business with every business that didn't have some conflict with some aspect of my beliefs, there would be very few places where I could do business. There are businesses that support religious institutions that I do not support. As a Methodist, I don't share the same beliefs and Catholics, Jews, Muslims, Native Americans, etc. and so I can't do business with any of those guys. I certain can't do business with Democrats. There are some businesses that have made donations to various causes that I don't support such as right to life, anti death penalty, banning use of pesticides, and so on. For years now, people have been getting their knickers in a wad over a misrepresentative email claiming Target doesn't support Vietnam vets because they did not make a donation to a touring exibit. I support Vietnam vets, so because one Target didn't make a donation I should avoid all targets? There are businesses that deal is products from countries that I don't think have my interests at heart, so I would have to avoid them as well. I certainly would not be doing any business at any government office because I know that every one doesn't share my views. I am not sure where I will be getting my food as I don't have enough land on which to support myself with crops and hunting and every store that sells groceries around here also sells cigarettes and other tobacco products and I am completely against those items. In fact, I won't be able to buy fuel anywhere for the same reason.

As a diehard Texas Aggie, there is no way I could ever do business with companies run or staffed by T-sips.

So should I take in a survey form to every business with which I might do business and make sure they comply with everyone one of my views. To not do so, afterall, would mean I am a hypocrit, right?

Even if it is legal to carry there you are carrying against the wishes of the owner and are taking the low road. If you tell me that I cannot have something on your personal property and I do I am disrespecting you. This is the same thing.

Situations like this are why I believe that all signs should have force of law. You refuse to respect their rights as property owners. Go somewhere else if you must carry.

As I mentioned, the posting of the sign may be necessary for a variety of reasons, even if the owner doesn't agree with it. So he is complying with somebody's requirement that the sign has to be posted, but he specifically posts a non-legally binding sign so as to not actually preclude people with CHLs.

Proper signage in Texas does have the force of law. Improper signage does not. It is my understanding that this was done for specific reasons. I don't know for certain, but the "no beretta" sign in the OP is a classic example. What does that sign mean?

Does it mean No guns?
No Handguns?
No semiautomatic handguns?
No Beretta 92 handguns?
or that the owner doesn't like guns, handguns, semiauto handguns, or happens to be a JMB zealot and despises Berettas.

Vague signs would mean vague legal enforcement.
 
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Exactly. When the law describes the exact signage and verbiage, even illustrating what is legally required to ban carry, and the business chooses to ignore the law then their wishes and motivations aren't clear.
 
For those thinking that these signs are a result a corporate requirements, I beg the question: Why don't these signs exist in NY? The only no-gun signs I've seen in NY have been in federal buildings.
I have to assume that such signs being posted is simply a result of the owner being uneducated and misinformed, as that is a prerequisite to posting a sign prohibiting concealed carry in the first place. My ethical compass points to avoiding giving such entities my business.
 
I was in Dick's here in La. on Wed. and saw no signs regarding the proper carrying of firearms or otherwise. Bought two flats of shotgun shells and walked out with my Colt Defender in a crossdraw holster under my shirt just as usual.
 
Double Naught Spy said:
As I noted above, if I could not do business with every business that didn't have some conflict with some aspect of my beliefs, there would be very few places where I could do business.
Agreed. However, there are certain beliefs that carry ethical weight and others that do not. Example: Somebody practicing a different religion than another is not unethical. On the other hand, it is highly unethical for an entity to take action to increase violence, put customers at risk, and prohibit somebody from their natural instinct of self-preservation.
I'd contend that there has to be a line drawn somewhere, and good ethics can provide a good basis for that determination.
 
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I'm gonna jump in here with a story from a couple of weeks ago:

Me, my wife, her sister and my brother in law were at his house for dinner. After dinner we went out to see what was going on in the city (I live in Pittsburgh, PA). We ended up going to a strip club. (don't ask me why - not my idea - but I wasn't complainin if the wife was all for it). We walked in and to my surprise (I guess I just don't go to enough strip clubs) we had to go through a metal detector.

BING - of course I was pinged I was carrying, as I always am when I am outside my house.

When it became obvious that it wasn't my belt buckle and I didn't have any change in my pockets, the person who was checking ID's said "what, do you have knife or something with you?" I replied "I think I need to go back to the car for a second" and turned to walk out. (She was VERY understanding and courteous). I went to the car and secured my weapon and went back into the club. Instead of walking through the metal detector I was stopped at the door and searched by a very sympathetic and apologetic giant who obviously understood my predicament but was bound to search anyone who was carrying, etc.

I STILL went back into the club and we all had a great time.

Just food for thought.
 
Good story. I don't know what the laws are where you're from, OffArtist but in Texas we aren't allowed to carry in a place that makes 51% or more of its sales from alcohol. I would imagine that a strip club would definitely fit into this category and even being pegged in a metal detector could mean trouble. Again, I don't know where you're from but in Texas that would have potentially been a very bad situation for the carrier.
 
I'm in Texas, and I carry when it is legal. I ignore signs that don't meet the legal requirements.
 
I would spend my money elsewhere if at all possible. Having said that, the reason you are not patronizing that business needs to be explained politely but firmly to the manager/owner. If they don't know why you aren't patronizing them, you have done nothing to change the situation. You may not believe that your voice is relevant, but if the company suddenly had a half dozen people per week come in and explain that they wouldn't support the business because of the no gun policy, things just might change. If you MUST patronize a business with improper signage, I would ignore the sign and carry.
 
the reason you are not patronizing that business needs to be explained politely but firmly to the manager/owner.
VCDL has some of the "No Guns=No Cash" business cards making the rounds, but I do like on the back of VCDL's where in order to respect the company/owner wishes they add that "For your convenience, you will be added to our "gun-owner-unfriendly businesses" database."

Nuttin' like letting them know it's not just between the two of you! :D
 
Same as I would hunt on an out of staters property for not posting their signs properly.

post #40

carrying is not HUNTING, last I heard
but if you want to argue that with Ga DNR, feel free (and you just might have to, if they don't think you are being truthful about why you are there with a gun, especially if they notice that whitetail carcass you just gutted.. if it happens to be out-of-season, just tell 'em the season wasn't properly posted either)
be sure you have your "EDC" lawyer with you

but I believe our friend meant he would only do that in his home state, because maybe property owners there have no say over happens happens on the land they own, unless they have an EDC lawyer working for them, to be sure that somebody else's EDC lawyer would not find a spelling error

which is what our northern compatriot said he would do, deliberately HUNT on somebody else's land without their permission... because because being rude, disrespectful, and ignoring the property rights of others is A-OK, if they don't have armed guards and metal detectors at the entry point.. or maybe only if they own property in his state but don't live there, obviously invalidating their right to own property they don't live on.. or maybe just because unlikely to meet them face to face with a shotgun in their hand

no need to let common courtesy get in the way of good fun
 
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Well Double Naught Spy if the sign is unclear you can ask them, right? I mean that is the logical answer and the best thing to do. Ask them what it means.

And for everyone, what about signs that say No-Firearms allowed (in words rather than an illustration)? Is that unclear to all of you? You say it doesn't meet legal requirements, so obviously you know what this one means but that it is not meeting the legal requirement so surely you are able to interpret it? How would you know what that it does not meet legal requirements if it is unclear to you its meaning?

Just because something is legal does not mean it is ethical. By carrying you are violating the rights of the property owner who has asked you not to carry. Next time someone violates your rights don't complain. This is why businesses lobby for signs with force of law behind them because people would not be courteous enough to respect their wishes so now they are punished if they don't.
 
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What pushed me to get a permit to carry was the murder of two friends of my brother by a carjacker on the way to band practice. I barely knew them (we had shared beers and burgers and played volleyball at a July 4th party at my brothers'). I was told they were the kind of people who probably gave the carjacker their car keys and their $11 pocket change without resistance, and he killed them anyway. That was one factor in my decision to get a carry permit.

I do not carry for the purpose of carrying in a business or other establishment, but when I am carrying for self defense against being way-laid around the home, on the travel or in the parking lot (the most common sites of criminal attack), I cannot make the gun disappear if I have to enter a business or other establishment out of necessity.

Would I concealed carry in a place that posted a sign against it? That is a judgement call.

Would I deliberately go somewhere knowing ahead of time that they barred carry of a gun and carry anyway? NO.

The non-legal compliant signs are often posted with a wink-and-nudge aimed at (a) illegal carriers or (b) hoplophobe customers who are scared of guns. Such signs are a fig leaf for businesses that are not really concerned about legal carriers, but somehow believe such signs keep out illegal carriers or appeal to people who fear concealed guns they should never see.

Also concealed means concealed. If you cannot effectively conceal the fact that you are carrying, maybe you should not concealed carry, especially if you do not understand the concept of justification of necessity which is legally related to the concept of justification of self-defense. I would not plan on going into a business that posted against guns, but sometimes one has little or no choice. Quite frankly I often would leave my gun on me in its holster when I went into the convenience store on Beech Creek Road to pay for gas (even though they had beer for sale in the cooler and carrying where alcohol was sold was a no-no) because the alternative was to leave the gun in the vehicle vulnerable to theft or be seen handling a gun in my vehicle at the gas pump. (The law has been changed to no guns where alcohol is consumed.)

In yesterday's newspaper (10 Jun 2010), Dear Abby answered a letter from a girl who had been told by her parents that a parishoner "carries a licensed gun when he's in church" and it gave her the heebie-jeebies and asked Dear Abby what she should do about it.
DEAR GUN-SHY: If the man has a license to carry the gun, then he's breaking no laws. You are certainly within your rights to refrain from being in his presence. If your parents were really concerned about their safety, they would either talk to the pastor or go somewhere else to worship. Because they have done neither, I think you should let it go.

(It's also within your rights to refrain from being in the presence of persons of color or white skinheads with Nordic tatoos, but overcoming my own prejudices I have found that people I once feared are often decent people inside in spite of my bigotted reaction to their appearance.)

Justification of necessity. Don B. Kates, Restricting Handguns: the Liberal Skeptics Speak Out 1979, recounts testimony from Chicago gun court judges who often dismissed illegal gun charges against people caught carrying in no-gun-permit Chicago because (a) the carriers were otherwise law-abiding citizens caught carrying out of fear of crime and often poor people caught carrying in bad neighborhoods, and (b) the arrests usually involved blatant 4th Amendment violations. There's the spirit of justice then there's the letter of the law. Law is supposed to serve and bend to justice, not the other way around.
 
They obviously don't want your buisness as they are discriminating against you. The better question is WHY WOULD YOU WANT TO SHOP THERE?
 
Anyplace that would not respect my right to CCW, I would not patronize

Even if it is legal to carry there you are carrying against the wishes of the owner and are taking the low road.


If the property or business owner actually desired to prohibit carry of firearms in their store, they could post the legally binding signage. If they do not, I will assume they are simply placating ignorant anti-gun customers.



When the law describes the exact signage and verbiage, even illustrating what is legally required to ban carry, and the business chooses to ignore the law then their wishes and motivations aren't clear.

On the contrary, it's quite clear they do not care about actually prohibiting otherwise legal concealed carry in their establishment, only about pacifying shrill antis who are ignorant of the law.
 
If you ask them and are told they want this nonstandard sign to ban CHLs, you personally have been notified and banned. So don't ask.

Also, I have spoken to a manager or two with such sign and been ready to give the RKBA Sermon and they told me they are quite away the sign has no legal force (and didn't telll me to get out) and they plan to keep it that way.

As far as gun carrying being an ethical issue and practicing a certain religion not being an ethical issue - that's a laugh but I will not pursue as to avoid a shut down of the thread.

To conclude, the ghostbuster has no legal force. If you ask about and are told they want to ban - you are banned. Others who don't ask aren't.

My hospital has such a sign - when I tried to see the great white tunnel and grandma awaitin' for me - I didn't care about the sign.
 
Well Double Naught Spy if the sign is unclear you can ask them, right? I mean that is the logical answer and the best thing to do. Ask them what it means.

Why if the business is too lazy to put real words on signs would I go out of my way to ask for an explanation?

And for everyone, what about signs that say No-Firearms allowed (in words rather than an illustration)? Is that unclear to all of you? You say it doesn't meet legal requirements, so obviously you know what this one means but that it is not meeting the legal requirement so surely you are able to interpret it? How would you know what that it does not meet legal requirements if it is unclear to you its meaning?

Yep, the meaning must be that it is sarcastic art, a freedom of expression commentary on our society.

Just because something is legal does not mean it is ethical.
By whose ethics are we considering?


By carrying you are violating the rights of the property owner who has asked you not to carry.
Nope, you are completely wrong. Keep in mind that violation of rights is a legal issue and so we are dealing with the law. In Texas, where this sign is posted, a violation of said rights would only occur if the owner or one of his representatives informed us verbally that we could not carry on the premises or if a sign of proper parameters is properly posted. Otherwise, no violations of the owner's rights have occurred.

Next time someone violates your rights don't complain. This is why businesses lobby for signs with force of law behind them because people would not be courteous enough to respect their wishes so now they are punished if they don't.

How is it that you have so completely failed to understand that in Texas and apparently some other states, businesses have no gun signage with the force of law. All they have to do to get legal compliance is to comply legally themselves. It really is that simple.
 
By carrying you are violating the rights of the property owner who has asked you not to carry. Next time someone violates your rights don't complain.

A business that is open to the public, must be open to ALL of the public in accordance with LAWS. The LAW dictates who a business owner can, and can NOT, discriminate against, NOT the business owner.

Those businesses that post the "right to refuse anyone" signs would most certainly find out that they actually DON'T have that right in a court of law should they opt not to serve an individual due to their race, gender, orientation, etc...

The same thing applies to CHL holders.

Only the law can dictate where a CHL holder may lawfully carry, and it is the duty of the CHL holder to know where they can do so.

A business has no more right to discriminate against a CHL holder than they do against say...fat people, or minorities, or children. Not unless the LAW allows them to do so.

I ensure that I know and follow the law as a CHL holder, I expect business establishments to do the same.
 
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