Concealed Permit Requirements

[wyocarp]

I am actually totally anti government. But, since we have these permits, it seems to me that they ought to mean something. I watched a concealed carry class yesterday in Colorado as my wife and son were enrolled in the class. There were 13 people enrolled in the class. Out of the 13 people, I felt that only possibly 2 people would I trust with a weapon. My son and one of the other men knew how to handle a firearm well. My wife isn't bad, but still not to a level of competency that I would like to see. The rest of the group appeared to be new to guns and possibly handling their first gun.

I didn't feel safe while standing behind them on the firing line at the indoor range. From pointing loaded guns at people, droping magazines while firing, to leaving their fingers on the triggers, I've never been any more uncomfortable. I'm not perfect, but these people should not carry anything more than their driver's license. They were all bumbling idiots, and I think I'm being kind.

What do you think? Should people show firearm competency before actually obtaining a concealed carry permit?

 

[wyocarp]

I'm sorry, but it was scary thinking about most of the people in that class being able to carry a weapon. They shouldn't have even been able to look at a weapon without supervision in my opinion. I realize I'm spoiled by living in Wyoming where I grew up shooting anywhere outside the city limit sign. But if you don't live in that environment, then you need to buy training.

 

[Big45]

I chose the "no one should have...." option, as part of that whole line of "The 2nd Amendment is my permit..." thinking.

 

[AK103K]

We dont need any more rules for something we dont need rules for in the first place.

 

[Frog48]

In a perfect world, you wouldnt need government approval in order to carry.

 

[wyocarp]

While I totally agree with the not wanting any rules for gun ownership, I don't feel good about these people representing the responsible gun population.

 

[22-rimfire]

I don't like permits much. I have one.

The primary reason I got a CCW permit was to allow me to carry a loaded handgun in my vehicle. I rarely carry on my person except at times when I am forced to be somewhere that makes me feel volunerable. It is strictly a safety thing for me; my safety or my family's.

I doubt that the majority of the people in the class are going to carry for very long. It is a bit of a hassle really. Some people think you have to have a permit to keep a handgun in their home.

 

[Mil-Spec45]

I would vote for "nobody should need one" exept that is not the case, nor probably ever will be. So if looking at it realistically as it is today, I voted for "People should have to show competency"

The bottom line is you need a permit presently. I don't think a 12 hour class is appropriate for people like me to learn "this is a primer and this is a hammer" and "keep your finger off the trigger". You should simply have to walk up to a firing line, show proper handling, and hit a target...something any gunner should find entertaining, and not have a problem with. Instead of an infringment, it might be looked upon as a day at the range with fellow enthusiasts. If it appears as though you can't handle a gun safely while being "supervised", you'll be shown the right way and asked to come back at a later time.

I think that's a good compromise.

 

[230RN]

The rest of the group appeared to be new to guns and possibly handling their first gun.

This is a good thing. Don't knock it.

They'll learn. Just like you did, growing up in Wyoming, the first time you went out of the city limits to shoot. The niceties of shooting beyond The Four Rules will come with time.

I backed a car into another car the first time I tried to parallel park.

Didn't you?

My personal feeling is that your concerns are a little overblown, but I expect flak on that position.

 

[AK103K]

I think that's a good compromise.

Compromise is only good for those who are looking for you to do what they want. They win, if only a little at first, and your on the way to loosing big.

 

[wally]

Accepting a "permit" means you've surrendered the right. A "shall issue" license means you've met some minimal level of competence and/or trustworthiness. Great pains were taken to make Texas have a CHL instead of CHP!

While in an ideal world Vermont type carry should be universal, personally, I'm not sure letting any yahoo stuff a gun in their pants and go out in public is really such a good idea.

--wally.

 

[Texpatriate]

oops. I misread the last option as "no one should have a permit" rather than "no one should have to have a permit" as stated. I chose the first option, but had I not misread the last one that would have been my choice.

 

[TallPine]

While in an ideal world Vermont type carry should be universal, personally, I'm not sure letting any yahoo stuff a gun in their pants and go out in public is really such a good idea.

Except the law doesn't really stop anybody if thats what they want to do.

I'm guessing more people would be more familiar with firearms if not for all the gun control laws.

 

[Robert Hairless]

What do you think? Should people show firearm competency before actually obtaining a concealed carry permit?

You have admirably high standards for allowing people the means to defend their own lives.

But there are other rights where we really need to have people show competency before we let them exercise those rights.

At the top of my own list is the right to free speech. Don't you get annoyed when people make dumb or offensive statements? Everyone should be required to show competency before opening their mouths. It's not that I'm opposed to free speech, and I don't think you are either.

In fact I support it absolutely--just not excessively or with abandon. Of course I should have the right to say what's on my mind, but I see no reason why you should be allowed to abuse my patience with your nonsense.

We need to live by this venerable statement: "I might not agree with what you say but I will defend to the death my right to tell you to shut up and stop spouting drivel."

 

[Aguila Blanca]

What do you think? Should people show firearm competency before actually obtaining a concealed carry permit?

Where in the 2nd Amendment is there any mention of "permit"?

Either you believe in and support the 2nd Amendment ... or you don't. Permits/licenses have no place in a discussion of a constitutionally-guaranteed civil right.

The bottom line is you need a permit presently.

No, you need a permit. Actually, since you live in Ohio, you do NOT need a permit to open carry, and that was affirmed a few years ago by the Ohio Supreme Court. Citizens of Arizona, Washington, and several other states don't need a permit to open carry. Citizens of (and visitors in) Vermont and Alaska don't need a permit for either open or concealed carry. The statistics don't support any contention that those states are inherently more dangerous as a result of legal carry than states such as Texas that require a qualification target before issuing or renewing a carry permit.

 

[gbran]

VT & AK do just fine without requiring CCW permits.

 

[Mil-Spec45]

No, you need a permit. Actually, since you live in Ohio, you do NOT need a permit to open carry, and that was affirmed a few years ago by the Ohio Supreme Court.

The topic of this post is concealed carry, not open. I don't know where the majority of people on TheHighRoad stand on the open carry vs concealed carry debate...but it's not arguable to me. Open carry is ridiculous as a regular means of carry in my opinion. Concealed gives you the element of suprise and doesn't make it any more appealing to the bad guy to make you target #1. So let me rephrase: you need a permit to legally concealed carry in almost all states, period. If you want to take your chance breaking the law without one, then that's your decision.

I'm also smart enough to realize that despite what fantasy world some people want to live in thinking the law will change overnight (or even at all) that will give us 100% unrestricted gun rights, we don't; the fact is we probably never will. That's why I say "competency" over "class" is a compromise...because that's exactly what it is...not a further diminishing or losing of our rights. That would make it easier for us, not harder. Even the 1st amendment has restrictions, you know that.

 

[Mr White]

I believe that people should have to show some level of basic competency to obtain a CCP. I see too many yingyangs at the range and hear too many stories of idiots with guns that I don't think requiring owners to show tht they can at least handle and shoot a gun before they can carry one in public is asking too much.

 

[mejeepnut]

I voted people should have to take a class because it was the closest one to my way of thinking.I think when kids are in school there should be a firearms safety course.Every kid in school should have to take it and pass it,kind of like gym class or health class.It should teach them proper handling of firearms.It should teach them the hows and whys of the basic types of firearm actions and the hows and whys of the basic types of ammunition.

 

[CAPTAIN MIKE]

A Common Sense Approach

As a CCW instructor, I see quite a range of people applying for their permits and also a number who are in the process of renewing their permits. As you might expect, there are a number who are familiar with their firearm(s) and the full capabilities of those firearms. However a surprising number of folks who go through the class had "no clue" until they began a course of training for their Concealed Carry permit.

While I'm against having a burden of competency that is "too high" for the average person, I would be against having a complete lack of competency allowed - for the simple reason that the most basic level of firearm safety and marksmanship plus some level of situational awareness would go a long way from preventing tragic outcomes that might be avoided with some basic level training.

Now that being said, we should also recognize that just because a person has their CCW permit doesn't mean they regularly practice. It also doesn't mean that we can assume they have sought further firearms competency by attending FrontSight.com, PFCtraninng.com, Thunder Ranch, or any of the other excellent firearms training facilities available in the USA.

So it is that I often encourage students who go throught the basic CCW permit course to seek out and attend further training that will enhance their skill levels and make it more likely that if the Shinola Hits the Fan, and they are in a life-or-death struggle with full adrenaline dump and the tachypsychia effect in full throttle, they will be able to retain enough skills to save their own life and/or perhaps the life of a loved one or another innocent in the face of a killer.

We in the firearms community often take too much for granted. When I see a person dressed and carrying themselves in such a manner that it seems to me they are "too tactical", I naturally wonder if they have true skill-at-arms or whether they are a poser wearing the clothes and acountrements and merely 'talking the talk'. Be that as it may, we owe it to ourselves and to others who carry to seek out better and more training, and yes to regularly practice those skills on the range. I for one love the IDPA because of that. I also like USPSA but feel that their 'gamesmanship' offers the serious self-defense practitioner less than what might otherwise be given.

All things being equal, skill-at-arms is worth the training, the time and the effort you make to improve. To quote the Boy Scout Motto: "Be Prepared".

 

[gbran]

As a CCW instructor, I see quite a range of people applying for their permits and also a number who are in the process of renewing their permits. As you might expect, there are a number who are familiar with their firearm(s) and the full capabilities of those firearms. However a surprising number of folks who go through the class had "no clue" until they began a course of training for their Concealed Carry permit.

I've had my ccw for 8 years now and have to renew every two. There are usually 25-30 people in the renewal classes I attend. Many of them were in my previous classes. Some of these repeats can't shoot any better than they did in years past. I suspect they only practice every two years.

 

[wyocarp]

I expected that many would come down on me kind of hard for wanting people to show competency before obtaining a permit. I guess I am of the opinion that everyone should be allowed to own any gun they want and to carry it openly. I guess I also advocate being able to buy any gun I would like in any state that I find it for sale in.

I also feel that we could have a permit for concealed carry and that permit would allow the carry of a firearm anywhere in the United States with the understanding that those with the permit have shown they are competent to use the weapon and have passed background checks to prove that they have at least had a decent past.

 

[kevkan06]

can a Ruger New Model Blackhawk .357 w/ 4 5/8" barrel be used to take the Concealed Carry test in S.C.?

 

[SG1]

I thought the whole point in taking the "class" was to show some minimal level of weapon competency before applying for the license?

 

[230RN]

With all due respect, does this sound self-contradictory to you?

Or is it just me?

I believe that people should have to show some level of basic competency to obtain a CCP. I see too many yingyangs at the range and hear too many stories of idiots with guns that I don't think requiring owners to show tht they can at least handle and shoot a gun before they can carry one in public is asking too much.
__________________
What part of 'shall not be infringed' are they having trouble with?

A cigar to you, TallPine, for:

I'm guessing more people would be more familiar with firearms if not for all the gun control laws.

[BELL RING]

'Cept you forgot the blasphemous condemnatory adjective before the words "gun control laws."