Concerning the rule about constructive tactics

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c_jackson

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I read a discussion thread, closed now, concerning the site's rule about the John Wayne attitudes many seem to take when it comes to defense of family and property. Personally, I agree with the ruling. It gets tiresome listening to the old routine about individuals "invading personal space". A lot of first-time firearm owners visit sites like this one hoping for practical advice and end up hearing hyped-up rhetoric concerning shooting anyone who moves if the weapon holder deems it necessary. This may lead to bad judgement and momentary decisions which have life-altering consequences. I take a lot of courses, aside from military training, on my own to better handle situations of this nature. It costs, true, but the confidence and experience learned from such courses gives one enough wisdom to learn the difference between a situation and a bad situation. In the end, a confident individual is a dangerous one, to paraphrase. Not all "face-offs" need be handled with violence. Most times, a simple harsh verbal and visual warning works, I've learned. If it escalates, well, the obvious need not be stated. One has to remember, law of physics dictates where the bullet travels once fired, though, and has no regard where or what/whom is on the receiving end. I'm a newcomer here, but am a member on several other firearm forums and sites. We normally take the Rambo mentality with a bit of "good Lord, not one of those again" lightheartedness. Military and Law-Enforcement tactics differ immensely from domestic situations and a level head coupled with a LOT of common sense wins the day, in my book. I've never had to lock on to an intruder and, God willing, I never will. I apologize to the moderators and the site administrator for possible infractions on this "thread", but I do welcome all supporting and dissenting opinions. I merely wanted to post my thoughts on this and open up outside discussion and opinions. If you think I'm an idiot for stating this, well, that's okay too. We're all Americans, here.

With all best regards and compliments,

C Jackson
 
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Welcome to The High Road. I guess my advice to you would be to use search through old threads for pearls of wisdom. There are a lot of really smart, well trained, and sensible people on this site. There are also quite a few grizzled and angry anarchists as well. You're going to encounter the "I'll shoot anyone on my property, badge or no badge" tripe no matter what gun forum you're on. Try not to take them too seriously, and hopefully you can get the answers you're looking for.
 
To quote Parris Island training, sir, "And on the Eighth Day, God Created the U.S. Marines." Sorry, just a believer. Bad habits die hard. My apologies, again, I don't mean to create trouble, I'm just an old man looking to make a couple friends.

Regards,

C Jackson

I'm glad to make your acquaintance and look forward to talking to you and everybody here again.
 
TaurusOwner,

It's been a long time since I saw that particular quote. Awakened an old Gyrene instinct, thank you. It reminds me of the days, not too long ago, when Marines could be Marines. Disclaimer, I've also been Navy as well, but rejoined the Ranks. I probably won't see retirement, but it's a part of the job. Just happy as hell to see others here who believe in the old school like me. I'll get out of the way now, others have to speak. If you guys are interested, I'm also hanging out on AR-15.com. I love to talk about firearms, maybe in the eyes of others I'm maladjusted, but I've raised four kids who are pretty comfortable and going to college. Notre Dame was never my favorite, but the Crimson Tide seems to be doing well. Anyway, I won't take up any more of the time I'm alloted, I hope everything is well with my friends.
If they're here.

CJ
 
Constructive Tactics, thoughts on this and outside discussion and opinions...

CJ, I have to agree about your comments in the original post.
It gets tiresome listening to the old routine, and "overkill" type mentalities.

I was concerned when real tactical situations like discussed in the threads (below) are shut down and locked as
"not realistic" or "doomsday" scenarios because they involved random drug situations, or bank robberies, or had been discussed before...
http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=414679
http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=415213

We as citizens are just as susceptable to that type of scenario as we are a Katrina situation, a mall shooting situation, or a home invasion, and I think it's a mistake to shut down those discussions of valid tactic's involved in those kidnapping, bank robbery, etc. type of situations, just because they are more challenging tactical situations, and yes often lead to more violant typical outcomes.

Seems to me Strategies and Tactics should be about these "more serious" CCW and daily life "tactical" situations.
Sometimes I think trying to enforce "political correctness" can result in a "watering down" of valid situations...
(like Bank robberies and Kidnappings) that should still be discussed, even though 99% of us may never have to face them.
Things can be learned to apply to other situations one may face in today's dangerous society...that's why we CCW, and should be trained/thinking individuals...thinking ahead about every situation with a valid gameplan. (tactic/strategy).

What do we want this section to be about, if not about serious tactical situations that could be considered "civil disturbance" in the truest sense of the words. I mean Hurricanes and Flood related "civil disturbance" scenarios are acceptable, but bank robberies and kidnappings are not? Both I think are possible situations to our members, and should be discussed (in a "rational" way)...and not just locked out. JMHO.
Perhaps a "warning to get back on track" before being locked up would be better. Just an idea. CCW and such are serious responsibilities, and we should prepare for every eventuality that we can realistically consider...and that human beings encounter.

"Be Prepared"
-Boy Scouts of America
 
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Arizonaguide,
The rules here evolved over time as the quality of discourse in the forum went South. If you don't like the way the place is being run, I suggest you look elsewhere. There are plenty of other places on the web where people can go beat their chest, talk about what a bad asses they are and stoke their egos by proclaining that they, their CCW permit and the Kel Tec in their pocket are all that stands between civilization and a total breakdown of law and order.

You can't do it here. That is made very clear in the sticky threads at the top of the forum.

There are certain subjects that the membership just cannot discuss and maintain the required civility. Then there are threads like this one: http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=415213 that went 68 posts before I closed it. Just as predicted, the members divided into two camps, those who advocate intervening and those who advocate being a good witness. Plenty of bandwidth wasted and for what? What did anyone learn from that thread? Nothing, there was nothing to learn, it was just 68 posts of one side trying to convince the other that they were right.

It's my opinion that threads like that are started, not to get answers, because there aren't any, but so that someone can boost his ego or have his own thoughts on the matter confirmed by others. There is nothing wrong with having those fantasy's of being a hero. Every rookie cop has them. The difference is, the rookie cop is soon exposed to the real world and the court system and that's enough to kill the day dreams of winning the shootout against 3 armed robbers. A CCW holder, being a law abiding citizen, and living in a very safe country where violence is something surreal, something sanitized on the TV news and glorified by the entertainment industry, doesn't get the dose of reality that puts those thoughts in check.

In any situation where you are not directly involved and are not a person with a duty to act, you must weigh what you know, what you have observed, your own skill level and the consequences to you and others of your action, your own personal moral code figures into the decision.. That is why there is no right answer to that question, no school solution. And we are wasting everyone's time by looking for one. It doesn't exist. Only the person on the scene can make that decision, and unless there was gross negligence or misconduct, no one has the right to judge that decision.

The Strategies and Tactics Forum is not a philosophy forum where the discussion of whether it's moral or immoral to intervene is on topic. Everyone must answer that question for themselves. We aren't going to have that discussion here.

We will deal with the nuts and bolts solutions to problems, discuss legal issues that may affect decisions on what action to take and discuss real life situations.

If you want to discuss taking out 3 bad guys from a draw, take it somewhere else. It's not remotely real. Get out your copy of Collateral and watch Tom Cruise do it....Then look at the credits and find the screenwriter's name, because he or she made that fantastic feat of gun fighting prowess happen. Then look for the technical adviser, because he made it look plausible. Then call up your buddies and talk about it, or post about it in a movie thread in general gun discussion...Don't bring it in here.
 
I'd do what John Wayne do, shoot anyone that invades my personal space. If I deem it necessary I'll shoot any thing that moves. If it's on my property I'm dusting it off badge or no badge ( twice if it's a CCW badge)

When the zombies attack you'll find me standing in my yard, ankle deep in brass, the bodies of the rioters, outlaw motorcycle gang members, crazed tweakers, (insert name of evildoers here) stacked like cordwood against my fence in the predawn mist, with the girls from the Hooters restuarant down the street huddled behind me and asking me to father their children.

And in the bank scene I'd draw my Llama .32 and attack while singing "I Need A Hero" at the top of my lungs. :D

My Gawd guys ya think ya might be taking this just a tad too serious?
 
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In any case, I think that the Internet is a lousy place to expect to learn tactics/self defense/gun law, at least insofar as one plans to apply that learning in real life.

The Internet, in general, and gun forums in particular, are populated by a wide range of largely anonymous folk with vastly different levels of real world training and experience. We have people with serious and substantial LE, military or other tactical training, who have "been there and done that" and who really know what they are talking about. But then at the other end of the spectrum, we have folks who have no real training or experience but lots of imagination. And sometimes it can be hard to distinguish between them.

We can have some lively discussions, but I'm skeptical of the true educational value of those exercises.

If you want to learn, take classes at respected schools from respected trainers.
 
In all seriousness I like the strategies idea( I.E. I picked up a brace that goes frome the doorknob to the floor and put dowels in all my windows behind suggestions I learned here), the strategy being stop the bad guy from getting in the house in the first place. It's the tactics and the what if scenarios that cause the problems.

I can't afford all the highspeed, low drag, training so I'm just going to have to get but without it and rely on the basic infantry tactics and MOUT training I learned in the Army ( sans crew served weapons, fire support and hand grenades of course :mad:)

I honestly believe this whole subforum coud be summed up in " Make the best decision you can based on the facts available to you at the time, in light of your level of experience and training, and live with the consequences".
 
I don't want to look elsewhere, and I don't want to get banned over this...

Jeff, I do love the forum, and do NOT want to look elsewhere.

I was just bringing up a point (with tact, I hope) about we discuss tactics/strategies relating to civil disturbances like Katrina, but NOT bank robberies...when we can learn from both.

But I definately agree that the "standing ankle deep in spent brass" concept is unacceptable.

There are plenty of other places on the web where people can go beat their chest, talk about what a bad asses they are and stoke their egos by proclaining that they, their CCW permit and the Kel Tec in their pocket are all that stands between civilization and a total breakdown of law and order.
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Jeff, read my post(s) and tell me have you heard that attitude in ANY of MY posts? Or more like a very honest concern to learn with tact and dignity? CCW and such are serious responsibilities, and we should prepare for every eventuality that we can realistically consider...and that human beings encounter. In Arizona, Bank robberies are more likely for ME than a hurricane scenario. I (we) can learn from the discourse (yes, with your guidance!) It's NOT a waste of bandwidth!

I am NOT being argumentative here, Jeff, and I thought this thread was started so we could discuss this in a intelligent way.
I have NO desire to get banned, just because I want to make a (I feel is valid) point about one versus the other.

I don't want us to just lock every borderline thread with the attitude that:
I honestly believe this whole subforum coud be summed up in " Make the best decision you can based on the facts available to you at the time, in light of your level of experience and training, and live with the consequences".
Click to expand...
Because you could just say that about every thread "ah, we don't need to talk about anything because just use common sense in ALL scenarios". That's not what a "forum" is.

I want us to be able to discuss serious tactics that CAN happen to our members, without fear of being locked down, as long as we keep it civil and "on point' tactically...even if it's a situation that may only occur to 5% of the members. Instead of locking them down, can you provide guidance to the conversations with you excellent LEO experiences! Then we LEARN stuff!

Something along the lines of "let's get back to reality folks, because A, B, C, etc" instead of locking the thread, and not giving a chance to respond.

Then we Don't learn anything except fear to discuss valid (yes, even if inexperienced/nieve) concerns.
I want to learn from you in honest discourse Jeff! Please don't put me in the "ankle deep/doomsday" category.
 
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Anyone who takes all the stuff he reads on the internet as advice has a problem. This is like any other form of communication, a lot of it has to be filtered out and the rest has to be modified to your particular situation because only you know what you are facing at the time you are facing it.
 
Treo, Good points.
I would like to discuss MOUT stuff here. Is that possible?
That is PURE strategy and Tactics stuff, like not passing blindly in front of a window, etc...but I feel like I'd get in trouble bringing it up as "to high speed-low drag" scenario.

Does anyone know of a good forum where that "high speed-low drag" (strategies and tactics)stuff IS discussed in a "non-ankle deep in brass" professional manor? Or is it all secret handshake stuff? I want to be a trained/educated/responsible CCW person.

Nobody is suggesting blindly taking everything on the forum as sound advice. But a "forum" is how we learn NEW ideas/tactics.
 
I would like to discuss MOUT stuff here. Is that possible?
Click to expand...

All of the MOUT stuff I learned was small unit tactics. One guy watching the squad's back while you're getting ready to breach the room/building/ fighting position. Throw in a grenade (or two) and go in shooting. It wasn't terribly complicated the biggest issue was training not to sweep your battle buddy ( non issue if it's just you in your house in the middle of the night).

I'll save you all those bucks you would be dumping on high speed training right now

1. Get a good gun that YOU are comfortable with practice with it in till you can load, unload assemble & dissasemble it blindfolded (IOW become very familiar and compatent W/ your weapon) John Wesely Hardin never set foot in a shoot house.

2. Become very familiar W/ the laws concerning CC & deadly force in your state, retain a good pro 2A lawyer.

3. Learn good basic first aid including BCLS and AED

4. Learn a good grappling style martial art ( I've never seen a street fight that wasn't a wrestling match in the first minute)

5.Start and maintain a good strength training/ cardio workout routine, if you can do some of your cardio work at a higher altitude than you normally live at (for COS residents think "incline")

6. Send Treo some of the money you saved.:D
 
arizonaguide said:
...Or is it all secret handshake stuff? I want to be a trained/educated/responsible CCW person....
Click to expand...
It's not really "secret handshake" stuff, because the training is available. Of course, the top schools, like Gunsite, require proof of good character. They don't want to be training gangbangers.

But I don't see how one can expect to get decent training on the Internet. First, the quality of the information is very dependent on the training, experience and expertise of the person imparting the information. That's pretty haphazard in cyberspace.

Second, most of these things have a physical component. We need to learn how to physically do certain things. And the best way to do that is to (1) have it physically demonstrated by someone who knows how; (2) physically do it ourselves while being observed and corrected by someone who knows how; and (3) repeat multiple times while being observed by a qualified instructor.
 
Good stuff, Treo! :)
Thanks. I was thinking about Gunsite as it's close to me, but just their CCW class for starters.

I do think a person has no business getting a gun, and throwing it in a drawer and never getting the proper training/mindset. And, with that I mean the "safety" mindset.

MOUT tactics won't ALL translate, but there are some things like corners/windows that DO apply.
I have no business "clearing" even my own home at night, without the necessary training in the proper "clearing" techniques.

Until I get that I'm hiding in the bedroom behind a closed door with my cell phone.
Does that sound like an "ankle deep in brass" attitude?

I just want to learn "proper"methods to deal with these issues correctly...and it's NOT all common sense. There are proper techniques to "clear" even the dark corners of your own home.

Isn't this a good place to discuss those techniques?, or at least discuss places to go to discuss/learn those techniques?

I always learn a lot from scenario stories, because they make me THINK! The more I think about "what would I do if..." then the more mentally prepared I am in that event. Yes the physical part is important too. But talking scenarios is a VALUABLE learning too because it's NOT all common sense. If it were we wouldn't need this subforum.
 
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Gunsite doesn't have to worry about training gangbangers. Our own military does a great job of that as do the prisons.

If you want good discussions, you can always go to the schools and their forums on the sites. Some have good forums on the sites. I think Firearms Training Associates has a forum. You might want to just click around a bit and find whatever you are looking for.
 
Thanks Notorious.
THAT'S a real world answer.
I will check out the FTA site, as well as giving Gunsite a call with the same question. They are good folks and I've discussed some stuff with them already about what Gun to purchase. Good folks!
I have good background stuff, even if the site/schools require "vetting"...and I just want to be the most RESPONSIBLE and trained/educated CCW person that I can be. Discussing tactical scenarios is big part of that, if done responsibly.

It's NOT a responsibility to be taken lightly. Arizona is getting to be quite a dangerous place.
 
arizonaguide,

And I heartily recommend Gunsite. I've been there for the handgun class and for the rifle class. You can learn a lot there.

Also, I understand that Massad Ayoob will be back in Phoenix in the fall with an LFI-1 class.
 
Honestly, AZGuide, if you want good advice, make some friends with your local LEOs and talk to their academy instructors. They can guide you on a lot of the legal ramifications and what the courts look for when deciding a justifiable homicide shooting in self defense type of case.

Also, don't bother with open boards. Do it on IMs or email or pick up the phone with some people that you trust. It's easy to type a lot of junk and not back it up.

I would say talk to the DAs but they are a bunch of young pompous asshats for the most part around here, at least the ones in the courts.

Remember, it only takes seconds to fire that shot but years to sort out the legal ramifications.
 
Yup! All good advice I guess, Notorius. I have done much of that with some citizen type classes with LEO, and have some good LEO friends from that. Good advice, Sad, but probably very true. Gunsite and Ayoob are also excellent advice.
 
I don't know, fellas. Personally, I agree with Arizonaguide. He backed me up on the point I made in the beginning. His follow-up may have been less than what the rest of the forum was willing to accept, but is that not what forums like this one are here for? People should be free, within a certain limitation and always following the rules, to say what they feel. I'm not an empassioned individual here, nor am I an Internet "troll" trying to start conflict but I do agree with what he said. Why the rest of you chose to attack his words, frankly, mystifies me. He echoes a widely known, yet seldom spoken sentiment prevalent in American society. I looked at his post and why it caused the row it did and I can find no fault in what AZGuide has posted. Some, yes, most, may disagree with his outspoken point of view, but it is his point of view and he is welcome to it. I did not start this thread to "troll" for conflict. I merely stated my agreement with the policy change here concerning individuals who take it upon themselves to go "over the top" and use open discussion boards like this to forward their own agendas. I welcomed all opinions, including dissenting views. Moderators here know what is appropriate for the site. I thought all were welcome to agree or disagree as was their right as long as they followed the TOC when they signed on. I didn't think, for one second senior members would turn on one of their own and try to ostracize them. This is a disturbing turn, some of the "intelligent and senior(wise?)" members here may want to readjust their attitudes accordingly. Internet aside, this is the United States of America and I thought we were all on the same side.

With great consternation,

SSGT C. Jackson
USMC(R):banghead:
 
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