Condo common areas

[HIcarry]

Got a question for all of the knowledgeable folks here:

My girlfriend owns a condo, which, like most, has "common areas" that are part of the condo and for which she has to pay maintanence fees. The question is whether those common areas are considered part of her property for the purposes of carrying a concealed weapon. The analogy I use is that it is legal for me to carry (without an permit) in my house or on my property (like my front or back yard). So, if the common area is part of her property, can she, without a permit, legally carry a concealed firearm if she stays on the condo property/common area?

I have not been able to find any info on this subject, so anything you guys (and girls) might provide would be helpful. Oh, and any links to authorative sources would be most helpful as well.

Thanks.

 

[Pat McCoy]

If it is truly a "condominium" she owns an undivided interest in the "condominium association" which in turn owns the building and common areas.

The "condominium association" rules would apply to the common areas. While the interior of her unit is under her rules.

IANAL, but have experience with condos and associations.

 

[Aguila Blanca]

Technically, I believe the answer lies in a combination of your state's laws and the particular condominium declaration documents. In my state, when a person buys a condominium they are buying (literally) a volume of interior space, which is contained within a structural enclosure that is owned by a separate legal entity called a "condominium association" or "owners' association." In this state, the written declaration documents must be accompanied by a set of plans or drawings specifically delineating and describing exactly what space is being conveyed with the unit. As a professional, I have prepared those drawings for a number of condominiums. Typically, the unit owner OWNS everything from the inside face of the sheetrock inward, excluding any load-bearing interior partitions, which are part of the structure and are owned by the association. On the declaration plans, we showed ONLY the structural walls -- any non-bearing walls (such as closets, bathrooms, some bedroom walls, etc.) simply didn't exist for purposes of delineating ownership.

Beyond your actual unit (which consists solely of interior space), there are typically common elements (things like the roads and sidewalks, maybe tennis courts and/or swimming pool and club house, etc) which are owned by the association but which each unit owner has a right to use. And then there are LIMITED common elements, which are things on the exterior that are owned by the association but the use of them is limited to one unit owner -- exterior decks, balconies, carports and such are examples of this.

Again, this is in my state. I don't know if it's the same in your state. If the law is written to allow you to carry on YOUR property, here that would mean only inside your own unit. The rest of the grounds belong to the association, which is a separate legal entity.

Don't confuse "condominium" with "cooperative." In a condo, you own a unit -- even if your ownership is technically only the volume within some other entity's walls, you own THAT unit. In a coop, the coop corporation owns the whole enchilada, and when you buy in you are buying a number of shares in the coop, equal to the percentage of the building that "your" unit represents. Thus, in a condo the common elements are NOT your property and you have no share of ownership in them. You are merely leasing a right to use them in exchange for your monthly fees. In a coop, you DO have an ownership interest in every part of the property.

I think Pat's explanation above really is more geared toward a cooperative than to a condominium, but his state's laws may be different from mine.

Confusing enough?

 

[ar10]

In OH it lies with the owner of the property. If they don't want guns on their property, including common areas, parking lots, or inside their buildings, then don't live there.

 

[Coronach]

This is an issue that just screams for the attention of a lawyer who is familiar with local statutory and case law, in both the areas of property law and criminal/self-defense/concealed-carry law. There's literally no way to answer this without being familiar with the law on the ground where you are. What is considered private property and what rights apply to private property owners vary heavily from jurisdiction to jurisdiction.

Mike

 

[NavyLCDR]

Could she hang up a photo of her family on the wall in the common area? Could she walk around in her underewear in the common area? She probably can't, legally, conceal carry without a permit there either.

 

[RobNDenver]

I own a townhome with common areas . . . pool, gardens, tennis courts, etc. I don't own any portion of the common area. I don't believe that any court is going to extend a property right to you or your gf in the common areas of the complex. Get a CHL permit.

 

[ArmedBear]

I'd get a CHL permit.

However, I think that your rights may vary from state to state.

I was looking through Idaho laws, and it appears that it's not illegal to carry a concealed firearm on private property in which you have an ownership or leasehold interest, and I do not see any reference to exclusive interest. I have no idea how case law there handles a common area, or even if my reading is correct. IANAL

In California, I believe one has to have exclusive interest or the permission of the property owner (in this case, the HOA, a corporation, is the owner of the common area).

So you may have to research your own state specifically -- while getting your permit.

 

[bdickens]

Good luck geting a concealed carry permit in Hawaii. Theoretically, you can, but from my understanding it's just that -- theoretical because no one has been actually issued one.

 

[HIcarry]

I would love to get a CCW/CHL, but in Hawaii, it is virtually impossible. I have been doing research on the subject and only 6 permits have been issued since 2000, and one of those was on Kauai. It was because of this situation the question of the common areas came up.

RobNDenver and ArmedBear: Thanks for the info.

 

[brickeyee]

Since it is private property, owners discretion.

The police are NOT the owners, so a permit is not required.

The owner is the one in control.
I would keep it concealed and not worry.

If the association tries to make a rule or has a rule it is probably enforceable.

It IS going to depend on the exact state laws though.

Just remember, the property is NOT public.

 

[scottgun]

Common areas of a condo complex are not your private property and you would need a CCL to be legal in these areas.

While it is private property, it is owned by the condo association, and it not your or your girlfriends private property. Each neighbor has an equal right to be there as you do. This would negate any claims that you would have to it being your private property.

 

[ants]

If she's that important to you, seek legal counsel. We have no credential.

Several of the posts above make three distinctions.
Private property is private, so laws regarding public property aren't applicable.
There is a contract between your girlfriend and the association, as her guest you are bound by that contract.
Given the body of common law in your state, you may be held to other responsibilities.

I would add one more distinction: If you violate the agreement as her guest and it blows up into a giant problem, and she gets sanctioned big time because of your stupidity, what is the value of your relationship to this woman? If it were my relationship, I would never expose her to sanction in her own home by the association of which she is a bound member. And you know full well that it can happen. If she's that important to you, get a legal opinion from someone with credential.

 

[HIcarry]

I would add one more distinction: If you violate the agreement as her guest and it blows up into a giant problem, and she gets sanctioned big time because of your stupidity, what is the value of your relationship to this woman? If it were my relationship, I would never expose her to sanction in her own home by the association of which she is a bound member. And you know full well that it can happen. If she's that important to you, get a legal opinion from someone with credential.

Actually, it was the desire to shield her from "sanction" (both from the HOA and the legal system) that prompted this initial attempt to research the subject so that I might be able to discuss the issue more intelligently when I do speak to my lawyer. But thanks for the suggestion.

And, for what it's worth, she is "that important" to me, hence the concern about her safety while she tries to enjoy her home and the common grounds. So the question was not just about my ability to carry concealed, but more importantly (and as I mentioned in my original post), hers.

Did I mention that this whole 'stupid' issue came up in a discussion she initiated about her safety and security issues? Additional issues she identified in that discussion included hardening the interior doors to create security zones, her home invasion response, strategic firearm placement while she is home, and safe shooting zones. Oh, we also discussed her most recent mouse gun purchase and how much she liked the XD 40.