Family member firing handgun in my name

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Has anyone rented a gun and what is the process, is it a transfer or not?
I've rented a gun like I was interested in buying a couple of times, although it's been so long ago that I don't remember the whole "process." I DO remember on both occasions, the "range" was part of gun store, and I didn't have to pay a rental fee if I bought a box of ammo for the gun from them.
Of course, this is Idaho. I have no idea what it's like to rent a gun in NY, or anywhere else the WWW reaches. ;)
 
  • So it would be great if someone with actual knowledge of what the relevant laws are could tell us and offer some better legal authority than a hunters’ safety pamphlet statement about crossing fences.
Until then, we can both "suspect", based on what info we do have. I'm basing my "suspicions" on an instruction book put out by a branch of the NY state government. Hopefully, as you say, we'll get some more input from someone with more specific knowledge than that.
 
on an instruction book put out by a branch of the NY state government.
The difficulty here being the very recent (as in the last few months, probably well after the publishing date of the publication) new Laws in NYS.

Specifically the CCIA, which has substantially increased restrictions on firearms owners in NYS.

Which is further complicated as a District Court Judge has ordered a temporary Stay of CCIA as unconstitutional.

It's my understanding that NYS carry permits, such as have been issued in certain Counties are only valid for one specific firearm at a time.

From New York Consolidated Laws, Penal Law §400.00 (emphasis added):
7. License:  form.  Any license issued pursuant to this section shall, except in the city of New York, be approved as to form by the superintendent of state police.  A license to carry or possess a pistol or revolver shall have attached the licensee's photograph, and a coupon which shall be removed and retained by any person disposing of a firearm to the licensee.  Such license shall specify the weapon covered by calibre, make, model, manufacturer's name and serial number, or if none, by any other distinguishing number or identification mark, and shall indicate whether issued to carry on the person or possess on the premises, and if on the premises shall also specify the place where the licensee shall possess the same.  If such license is issued to an alien, or to a person not a citizen of and usually a resident in the state, the licensing officer shall state in the license the particular reason for the issuance and the names of the persons certifying to the good character of the applicant.  Any license as gunsmith or dealer in firearms shall mention and describe the premises for which it is issued and shall be valid only for such premises.

CCIA appears to have added a restriction that such an annotated weapon requires a formal FFL transfer and appropriate State permits--which is presently tied up in litigation.

As a lay opinion, it appears that the status quo ante NYS law treated weapons permitted to be concealed as a separate class or type from any other firearm in the State, since that one firearms was tied to a specific issued Permit. That is nothing but lay opinion, of course.

Now, this is all presently specific to NYS, as that's where OP is located. The fact that other States differ is merely different and not germane.
 
Just to clarify, you're asking if you can have your wife accompany you to the range, and shoot your firearm while y'all are both there, right?
There have been responses regarding transfers and such, but I don't read the question that way.
Is there a state where you can't have a friend or family member go to the range with you and y'all shoot each other's guns while you're there?
Maybe I've just been spoiled here in the south.
That’s EXACTLY the reason for this thread. Nothing to do with a transfer.
 
Bah!

One needs to understand how to analyze a legal issue properly. And as has been pointed out multiple times, the law is not intuitive, simple, nor necessarily straight forward.

  1. The word “transfer” means what it means.

  2. Transfer is about possession, not ownership.

    Some definitions of "transfer" (emphasis added):

  3. Federal and state law regulates the transfer of firearms.

  4. Federal law generally requires a background check on transfers of firearms from an FFL to a person or across state lines. But federal laws includes some minor exceptions, such as, under some circumstances, temporary loans of a firearm for a lawful, sporting purpose. But federal law doesn’t make any exceptions for transfers between family members.

  5. The laws of most States don’t require formalities for firearm transfers between individuals (but federal law requires that they both be residents of the State).

  6. But an increasing number of States require background checks on private party transfers. But even those laws usually include some type of exception such as, usually subject to some conditions, loans to a family member.

  7. Such laws vary considerably by State.

  8. So the bottomline is that every loan is a transfer, but not every loan will be subject to a background check.
So this means then that handing a revolver at the range for my wife to shoot under my supervision constitutes a transfer and is therefore illegal?

She believes this to be the case as well and this is why she doesn’t shoot at the range. I guess she was right!
 
So this means then that handing a revolver at the range for my wife to shoot under my supervision constitutes a transfer and is therefore illegal?….

No. Handing your gun to your wife at the range is a transfer.

Whether or not it’s illegal (and it’s probably not) depends on applicable law.
 
New York PL 265.20 contains exemptions that may be relevant to the NY question, but not the OP question. I’d prefer to leave an analysis to Frank or another attorney.

7. Possession, at an indoor or outdoor shooting range for the purpose
of loading and firing, of a rifle or shotgun, the propelling force of
which is gunpowder by a person under sixteen years of age but not under
twelve, under the immediate supervision, guidance and instruction of (a)
a duly commissioned officer of the United States army, navy, air force,
marine corps or coast guard, or of the national guard of the state of
New York; or (b) a duly qualified adult citizen of the United States who
has been granted a certificate as an instructor in small arms practice
issued by the United States army, navy, air force or marine corps, or by
the adjutant general of this state, by the national rifle association of
America, a not-for-profit corporation duly organized under the laws of
this state, or by a New York state 4-H certified shooting sports
instructor; or (c) a parent, guardian, or a person over the age of
eighteen designated in writing by such parent or guardian who shall have
a certificate of qualification in responsible hunting, including safety,
ethics, and landowner relations-hunter relations, issued or honored by
the department of environmental conservation; or (d) an agent of the
department of environmental conservation appointed to conduct courses in
responsible hunting practices pursuant to article eleven of the
environmental conservation law.


7-a. Possession and use, at an indoor or outdoor pistol range located
in or on premises owned or occupied by a duly incorporated organization
organized for conservation purposes or to foster proficiency in small
arms or at a target pistol shooting competition under the auspices of or
approved by the national rifle association for the purpose of loading
and firing the same, by a person duly licensed to possess a pistol or
revolver pursuant to section 400.00 or 400.01 of this chapter of a
pistol or revolver duly so licensed to another person who is present at
the time.

7-b. Possession and use, at an indoor or outdoor pistol range located
in or on premises owned or occupied by a duly incorporated organization
organized for conservation purposes or to foster proficiency in small
arms or at a target pistol shooting competition under the auspices of or
approved by the national rifle association for the purpose of loading
and firing the same, by a person who has applied for a license to
possess a pistol or revolver and pre-license possession of same pursuant
to section 400.00 or 400.01 of this chapter, who has not been previously
denied a license, been previously convicted of a felony or serious
offense, and who does not appear to be, or pose a threat to be, a danger
to himself or to others, and who has been approved for possession and
use herein in accordance with section 400.00 or 400.01 of this chapter;
provided however, that such possession shall be of a pistol or revolver
duly licensed to and shall be used under the supervision, guidance and
instruction of, a person specified in paragraph seven of this
subdivision and provided further that such possession and use be within
the jurisdiction of the licensing officer with whom the person has made
application therefor or within the jurisdiction of the superintendent of
state police in the case of a retired sworn member of the division of
state police who has opted to make an application pursuant to section
400.01 of this chapter.
 
That’s EXACTLY the reason for this thread. Nothing to do with a transfer.
Laws and the definitions of words used in those laws don't have to be logical or consistent for them to still be laws. That's part of the reason that it's so common for people to "unintentionally ignore" the gun laws that make no sense. They're so ridiculous to the average person that they don't even think to look to see if what they're doing is illegal.
 
No. Handing your gun to your wife at the range is a transfer.

Whether or not it’s illegal (and it’s probably not) depends on applicable law.

If handing someone a gun, even under direct supervision, constitutes a transfer, then how is it legal for an FFL to rent out post-86 machine guns for ordinary people to shoot at their ranges? Example: Heritage Guild in Easton, Pennsylvania has a full auto HK G36 available for rental. Under the Hughes Amendment, would this not be absolutely illegal to transfer to anyone who is not a SOT or under employ of one?
 
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If handing someone a gun, even under direct supervision, constitutes a transfer, then how is it legal for an FFL to rent out post-86 machine guns for ordinary people to shoot at their ranges?…

Beats me, if that’s even really true. But in any event the word “transfer” still means what it means — as I outlined in post 18.
 
Beats me, if that’s even really true. But in any event the word “transfer” still means what it means — as I outlined in post 18.
If your provided interpretation of "transfer" is legally correct, every FFL with a storefront in the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania is violating state law by allowing patrons of their stores to so much as handle a firearm prior to filling out a 4473 and passing a PICS check.
 
Transfer is about possession, not ownership.
That's not true you can from a legal standpoint transfer either possession or ownership.
OP asking about the transfer of possession, wouldn't include laws that control the transfer of ownership.
Hence the reason you can rent machine guns because, federally it's not a transfer of ownership.
 
So this means then that handing a revolver at the range for my wife to shoot under my supervision constitutes a transfer and is therefore illegal?

She believes this to be the case as well and this is why she doesn’t shoot at the range. I guess she was right!
Has she ever been to a gun store and asked to look at one of the firearms? Does she think that every gun store and it's customers in the state are breaking the law repeatedly every business day? Neither Federal nor PA law regarding transfers make any mention whatsoever about having to actually fire the weapon as part of the transfer process. In short, she's wrong.
 
Has she ever been to a gun store and asked to look at one of the firearms? Does she think that every gun store and it's customers in the state are breaking the law repeatedly every business day? Neither Federal nor PA law regarding transfers make any mention whatsoever about having to actually fire the weapon as part of the transfer process. In short, she's wrong.
She’s never been to a gun shop and I don’t think their handing off of unsold merchandise at a gun shop ever crossed her mind one way or another.
 
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Target shooting at a range is not hunting.
Of course it isn't. That wasn't the point, obviously. The point is that not all "transfers" are treated the same way in PA. A 16 year old can legally take a firearm that has been handed (transferred, if you will) to him/her and go hunting with it with no adult supervision at all. A person can legally go into a gun store in PA and ask to look at one of the guns and it will be handed (transferred) to him/her with not even so much as names being exchanged first, in most cases. A person can go rent a full auto machine gun at some ranges in PA and have it handed (transferred) to him/her to shoot. All of these are well established, legal examples where the "transfers" aren't the same thing as the "transfer" that occurs when a gun is purchased. Transfer of ownership, in PA, is not the same thing as temporary transfer of possession.

Also, as I said before, there is absolutely nothing whatsoever in either Federal or state law that says anything about firing the weapon being any part of any transfer of either possession or ownership, so the fact that she's firing the weapon, either at a range or hunting or anywhere else, is not relevant.
 
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If your provided interpretation of "transfer" is legally correct, every FFL with a storefront in the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania is violating state law by allowing patrons of their stores to so much as handle a firearm prior to filling out a 4473 and passing a PICS check.

It's all about beating the definition of "transfer" to death. People like to post questions on common things here in the legal to get an answer, not a law school class, this question seemed to be a pretty easy one, but went down the tubes.
How about in court, does the judge ask the bailiff to "transfer" the alleged firearm used in a crime to the prosecutor so that he/she may wave it in front of the jury?
While shooting at the range, does anyone say, Hey Jim, nice new 1911, would you mind transferring it to me so I can see how it shoots??

JMO,
 
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If your provided interpretation of "transfer" is legally correct, every FFL with a storefront in the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania is violating state law by allowing patrons of their stores to so much as handle a firearm prior to filling out a 4473 and passing a PICS check.

And that comment shows why your opinions on legal matters are generally unreliable. You just make stuff up.

The reality is that you have not done any research or looked at the actual law. If you had you'd have had reason to know that your comment is nonsense.

As I previously posted:
No. Handing your gun to your wife at the range is a transfer.

Whether or not it’s illegal (and it’s probably not) depends on applicable law.

So what does applicable law say? Pennsylvania law, 18 PA Cons Stat § 6115:
Loans on, or lending or giving firearms prohibited.

(a) Offense defined.--No person shall ..., nor, except as provided in subsection (b), shall any person lend or give a firearm to another or otherwise deliver a firearm contrary to the provisions of this subchapter.

(b) Exception.--
...
(3) Nothing in this section shall be construed to prohibit the loaning or giving of a firearm to another in one's dwelling or place of business if the firearm is retained within the dwelling or place of business...
 
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It's all about beating the definition of "transfer" to death....

Well, it seems that some folks don't want to accept what the word "transfer" actually means in English.

...People like to post questions on common things here in the legal to get an answer, not a law school class,...

Do you want a correct answer, or an answer that makes you feel good?

... this question seemed to be a pretty easy one,...

Superficially, the answer is easy:
...Handing your gun to your wife at the range is a transfer.

Whether or not it’s illegal (and it’s probably not) depends on applicable law.

Of course, there's the question of what applicable law is, but that's State specific. We've seen one example (Pennsylvania law, quoted above). For another example, see California law:

  1. California Penal Code 27545 provides (emphasis added):
    Where neither party to the transaction holds a dealer’s license issued pursuant to Sections 26700 to 26915, inclusive, the parties to the transaction shall complete the sale, loan, or transfer of that firearm through a licensed firearms dealer....
    BUT

  2. See, for example, 27880:
    Section 27545 does not apply to the loan of a firearm if all of the following requirements are satisfied:

    (a) The loan is to a spouse, registered domestic partner, or any of the following relations, whether by consanguinity, adoption, or steprelation:

    (1) Parent.

    (2) Child.

    (3) Sibling.

    (4) Grandparent.

    (5) Grandchild.

    (b) The loan is infrequent, as defined in Section 16730.

    (c) The loan is for any lawful purpose.

    (d) The loan does not exceed 30 days in duration.

    (e) Until January 1, 2015, if the firearm is a handgun, the individual being loaned the firearm shall have a valid handgun safety certificate. Commencing January 1, 2015, for any firearm, the individual being loaned the firearm shall have a valid firearm safety certificate, except that in the case of a handgun, an unexpired handgun safety certificate may be used.

    (f) If the firearm being loaned is a handgun, the handgun is registered to the person making the loan pursuant to Section 11106.

So maybe things, at least in some States, aren't really as simple and straightforward as you believe.
 
And that comment shows why your opinions on legal matters are generally unreliable. You just make stuff up.

The reality is that you have not done any research or looked at the actual law. If you had you'd have had reason to know that your comment is nonsense.

I maintain my position. Your cited section of PA law does not account for things like picking up and examining a firearm for sale by an FFL at a gun show, for instance. I maintain that your interpretation of "transfer" is too broad and is not legally applied to these situations, otherwise patrons at gun shows in the Commonwealth would be prohibited from even touching firearms they don't own.

And this doesn't even begin to address the commonality of people handling and shooting each other's firearms at established ranges. But I guess that makes teaching someone how to shoot illegal in this state unless they buy their own gun first. And if so, God help you if you touch their gun and you're not LE or an LTCF holder.
 
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It's my understanding that firearms rental is an instance of a transfer under immediate supervision.

A similar condition exists where items are offered for sale. A potential buyer may examine the item, but, that item is in the supervision of an authorized person. This does not appear to be a specifically codified thing, but does appear to be generally understood in practice.
 
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