Conflicting data

[Mac2]

I just bought a new Charter Bulldog 2" and am going to reload for range practice. I have 2 reloading books, Sierra Second edition (1979) and a Speer #11 (1988). The conflict is using 2400 with a 240 gr JHP.

Speer states the max (I don't usually do max) is 11.5 giving 739 fps.

The Sierra data starts at 14.0 @ 900 fps up to it's max of 16.3 @ 1100 fps. They advise not to go under minimum loads, which are 20% in excess of Speer max load.

That's a BIG difference. Is the newer (Speer) using loads for older guns that can't stand the pressures?
I absolutely want to be safe, but I also want good performance from the Bulldog. Thanks for any input, Mac.

 

[BADUNAME37]

What Caliber?
Could there possibly be a +P Load?

 

[Mac2]

Sorry, it's a .44 Special.

 

[Sunray]

"...Is the newer (Speer) using loads for..." Hi. Nope. Neither manual is up-to-date. However, all manuals reflect data obtained on the day of the test with the firearm or universal receiver used for the test. And powders change over time.
Like Friendly says, the cartridge matters. Alliant gives 2400 240 grain data for the .44 Mag, but not for .44 Special. Max for a .44 Mag 240 jacketed bullet is 21 grains.
My Lyman Pistol and Revolver(first published in 1978) book gives 21.6 as max for a Speer 240 for a .44 Mag.
Are you looking a cast bullet data? Your data isn't even close to any data in any of my manuals or Alliant's site

 

[45ACPUSER]

You got a puter, then cross check with Alliant's web site for more current data!

 

[Beancounter81]

Well, here are some more data points. May only add to your confusion.

Speer #14 - no data for 2400 with 240 gr JHP (no surprise since Alliant doesn't give any data & they're both owned by ATK)
Lyman #49 - only has data for 240 gr JSP but I believe that should be similar enough - min 12.1 @ 604 fps; max 13.5 @ 723 fps OAL 1.465"

Your Sierra data is more in line with what Lyman shows for .44 magnum for a 240 gr JHP.

 

[Mac2]

Not looking at lead data. Both are clearly 240 JHP. Both with a sectional density of .186.
Speer shows a .429 magnum hp
Sierra shows a .4295 jacketed hollow cavity.

Reccon I just need to break down and get a new manual...

 

[Mac2]

Your Sierra data is more in line with what Lyman shows for .44 magnum for a 240 gr JHP.

My Seirra data for .44 mag is 2400 max load of 23.3 gr @ 1500 fps for the exact same bullet.

 

[Mac2]

You got a puter, then cross check with Alliant's web site for more current data!

No data for 2400. Not much of a reloading site. Lists 3 powders with only 1 charge each. Velocities are lower 800's.

 

[bigedp51]

Each manuals loading data is for "their" bullets in the type firearm that the company did the "testing" in. Yes manuals get old, the burning rate is still approximately the same, the big difference is which type firearm the load data was tested in. Barrel diameter, bullet diameter, bullet construction, cylinder diameter, etc will make the loads vary. The data isn't conflicting, the firearms, bullets used in testing are.

Short barrel, fast powder and maybe a lighter bullet would help.

below .44 Special loads

Pacific Reloading Manual 1967
no firearm listed
240 jacketed soft point
only max load listed 15 grains 2400

Lyman 45 edition 1970
Colt S.A.A
240 gr. Rem jacketed 12.0 grains min 14.0 grains max

Speer #9 1974
S&W Model 1950 Target
240 gr. soft point 3/4 jacket 2400 10.7 grains min 11.4 grains max

Hornady 7th edition 2007
Charter Arms 3 inch
no data with 2400 listed, HS-6 slowest powder bullseye fastest

 

[MEHavey]

What edition is that Sierra Manual?
(My `89 Sierra 3rd edition doesn't even have 44Special loads)


Since never throw anything away, I went back to my Speer/Lyman manuals of the mid`60's. Their loads for 44Special/2400 are extremely hot compared to later manuals. (I won't even list them.)

Get thee to a newer manual ... or two or three (something less than a third of a century would be nice)

 

[Mac2]

What edition is that Sierra Manual?
(My `89 Sierra 3rd edition doesn't even have 44Special loads)

Mine is the Second edition, copyright 1978. The newer Speer really dropped the rates. Wonder why?

Thanks to all for the replies. I'm gonna get a new manual. The Sierra was my Dad's. I have used the Speer since it came with my RCBS kit since 1988. I just don't want to be limited to "Older gun pressure" loads in a modern (new) piece, but I certainly don't want to over do it.

I have 3 boxes of factory 246 gr LRN from 1995 that belonged to my Dad. I'll shoot these to try the new one. Then more brass and a new book and I'm on my way. Thanks again for the replies, Mac.

 

[gamestalker]

I found some data from Handloads.com that sounds real good.
13.5 grs. - 15.0 grs. of 296 Velocity is estimated a max of 1147 fps.
This powder is real good to you so long as you follow the recomendation about not reducing the charge below minimum which in this case is 13.5 grs.
Another one is with 7.6 - 8.4 grains of VV-N350. Estimated velocity max is 910 fps.
I can tell you from experience regarding 296 or H110, as I load with them exclusively for my wheel guns for which data exists. Once you get past the shock of seeing so much powder in the case, and then actually fire the loads, and you'll then be hooked on it for your 44 special and other catridges that have published data using it.
The above data is for a 240 gr. JHP. I forgot to get the OAL for you but that isn't such a big issue with a jacketed canelured bullet.

 

[MEHavey]

Charter Bulldog 2"

Stay away from 2400 (or 296/110/any slow powder) in that short of a barrel. You'll literally dump [more than] half of it out of the muzzle unburned.

Go with Unique for >50% case fill/reasonable burn completion and max velocity within acceptable pressures.

 

[jmorris]

All you need to know, start low and work up for everyting except subsonic rifle where you start high and work down.

 

[Mac2]

I've got an ample supply of pistol powders on hand. I love Bullseye and Unique, buy them in the 4#. Have Red, Blue and Green dot. Herco, some very old (climate controlled from my Dad's) Hercules Bullseye and Unique (before it was known as alliant). W630. Just need the appropriate SAFE data. All today's data may not match what was O.K. in years past. My question is what has changed??? All the old powder smells and looks fine, the oldest being 30 years old. I have not had any problems with it, other than the data has changed.

 

[Mac2]

Stay away from 2400 (or 296/110/any slow powder) in that short of a barrel. You'll literally dump [more than] half of it out of the muzzle unburned.

Go with Unique for >50% case fill/reasonable burn completion and max velocity within acceptable pressures.

I appreciate the head's up. I use Bullseye and Unique a lot. Just had the 2400 and noticed the dramatic data change. Thus the thread.

 

[BADUNAME37]

I also don't throw away manuals as I always compare data when working up loads.

If you have a chronograph, you can better see just what the pistol is doing in comparison to what is advertised for that weight of similar (or even exact) jacketed bullet!

 

[MEHavey]

On the issue of conflicting 2400 data (old manuals v new):

See:
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=72355

...and

http://www.gunloads.com/castboolits/showthread.php?t=21477

... and

http://forums.handloads.com/archive/forum_posts.asp?TID=3256&KW=kimber

Contary to the rumor mill, it appears that it's a change to manual safety factors (and general appearance of the 44Mag to push bullets hot) rather than a change in 2400 formulation.

 

[Mal H]

Although you already have the correct answer - don't use 2400 for your application, I checked my 1998 Sierra data for 2400 in a .44 Spcl.

Min is 11.4 grains at 800 fps; max is 12.6 grains at 900 fps.

So, it's obvious that their data changed dramatically in 20 years.

[Admin note - please learn how to use quotes. Several of your posts look odd without them.]