Confused newbie...

[BigBlock]

I have recently aquired a revolver - a pre 1898 antique. I live in Oregon and I'm totally clueless about the gun laws. I don't plan on getting a concealed carry permit, so I'd like to know a little more about open carry.

First of all, in my vehicle, what exactly is legal for a handgun? What is the legal definition of "open" and "readily accessible"? Would a locked glove box be a legal place to keep it?

Secondly, on my person, how open does it need to be? Can I stick it half way down my belt?

 

[javacodeman]

I'm not up on Oregon's laws. Someone here probably is, but you should still google it and find your state's web page. Also www.packing.org has every state listed with it's individual laws, but you'll want to verify that they have the latest changes if any. I read all of my state's laws myself because I wanted to make sure what I was told was correct.

java

 

[General Geoff]

First off, if it's a pre-1898 antique as you say it is, DO NOT fire just any ordinary smokeless powder ammunition with it. You need to find ammunition that conforms to the pressure limits of the gun's design.

Second off, GET A HOLSTER. Seriously. It'll give you better retention, better accessibility, and will be more comfortable.

I don't know the laws in Oregon on open/concealed carry, so I can't help you there.

 

[ArfinGreebly]

Revolver?

Would you care to describe this revolver?

Calibre? Length?

This doesn't directly relate to the laws and rules that cover what you may and may not do, but they will be relevant to what you can do or should do once you know what's allowed.

 

[General Geoff]

Just from the vintage you describe, it's very likely it's a single action revolver. Not the best kind of sidearm to be carrying nowadays, but effective nonetheless. I'd recommend you carry with the top cylinder empty, lest you possibly drop the gun, resulting in an accidental discharge.

 

[BigBlock]

The gun is an American Bulldog .38...I know about the old ammo. I looked on packing.org about the laws, and that's how I know open carry is mostly legal here...but I don't know exactly what the definition of "open" is. It could be anywhere from in a holster to waving it around in the air yelling "I have a gun!" Is there any specific kind of holster I have to use?

It's not something I will be carrying very often...mostly just when I go on walks late at night. My former protection of a large angry dog has passed on.

 

[Arkie]

You can also go here to look up all the state laws. I think they update it a lot faster than most.

Click here...

 

[MatthewVanitas]

One quick note: a pre-1898 firearm counts as an "antique", and thus not legally a firearm.

Some twits will try and tell you that you can carry a pre-1898 firearm as though it were a lunchbox, and nobody could arrest you since it's not a "firearm".

Though not legally a "firearm" by BATFE definition, a loaded pre-1898 firearm (or blackpowder firearm of any vintage) is still a deadly weapon, and may be affected by laws accordingly.


Not saying that you're falling into that line of thinking, just posting this before some legal-beagle posts claiming that you can "do whatever you want because it's pre-'98".

Segue: how is the condition on that Bulldog 38? I'd be a bit leery of carrying a century-old no-name generic revolver. There may be a very good reason that that manufacturer hasn't survived until the present day.

-MV

 

[Silver Bullet]

Second off, GET A HOLSTER. Seriously. It'll give you better retention, better accessibility, and will be more comfortable.

Excellent advice, but the most important reason is for increased safety. Almost all of my firearms training classes required holsters, for the very good reason that while a weapon is holstered there is no chance of an accidental discharge.

I also like them to transport a weapon from one room to another, from the car to the house, etc. The added safety they provide is well worth the small expense.

Also: pay a visit to a local gun shop. Some of the states I have been in have books explaining that state's gun laws.

 

[Ditchtiger]

An Oregon LEO told me that a handgun in a case or glove compartment can get you in trouble because the gun being out of sight can be considered to be concealed even though the case is in plain sight.

 

[3rdpig]

Do yourself a favor, if you're not a collecter sell that revolver to someone who is and use the money to get yourself a modern weapon. Or start collecting yourself, but buy a modern weapon for self defense and the shooting sports.

Antique guns with modern ammo is a bad mix.

The Taurus revolvers, for example, are both inexpensive and sturdy, you can buy a used Taurus snub nose .38 for under $300. I've seen used Ruger Security Six .357 Magnum revolvers for $250 and used S&W model 10's for under $200. On the autoloader side, used Glock 17's go for around $300 and some of the Ruger 9mm's are less than that. If you need to go even less expensive than that the Hungarian PA63 (Walther PP clone) will set you back a whopping $140 and is light, well made and close to pocket size.

 

[Colt46]

handgun in pants=Bad Idea

You always want it safely secured when it is on your person. Get a proper fitting holster. That might be hard condsidering the rarity of your gun. Most likely it is a .38 S&W. I don't think it is interchangable with the .38 S&W Special. Although, there could be other .38 cals out there(from that time frame) that might be impossible to find ammo for as well. A good chance that it is an early 'saturday night special'(Bull Dog is usually a clue) and not as strong or even mechanically reliable weapon as something like a Colt or S&W. I would suggest you keep it as an oddity and maybe check into obtaining ammo for it to plink with. Trusting your life on an antique revolver of questionable quality in the first place is asking for it.

 

[BigBlock]

One quick note: a pre-1898 firearm counts as an "antique", and thus not legally a firearm.

Does that mean I may be able to carry it concealed? Where can I find out for sure? None of the previously mentioned websites say anything about antiques.

how is the condition on that Bulldog 38? I'd be a bit leery of carrying a century-old no-name generic revolver. There may be a very good reason that that manufacturer hasn't survived until the present day.

It is in extremely good condition...in fact I have trouble believing that it's over 100 years old. I know it's not up to the standards of a modern gun, but it's not like there's a lot to go wrong. As long as I have the right ammo it should kill someone just as well as it did in 1898. The American Bulldog was made by Iver Johnson, it looks just like this one but nicer:
http://www.gunsamerica.com/guns/976807811.htm
The gun was my grandpa's and I have no intention of selling it, plus I'm not interested in any sort of paperwork telling the feds I have a gun. Plus it's more for show than anything else.

I've been thinking about getting one of those little NAA mini black powder revolvers, but the same questions apply - where exactly do I put it without a CCW? Where can it be exactly in my truck or on my body?

 

[goosehouse]

Confused Newbie-Bulldog .38 Revolver

That Bulldog might not be a "a century-old no-name generic revolver". There was a Bulldog of that vintage manufactured by Iver Johnson "(solid-frame). They were available in .22 rimfire (CCI CB only);.32 S&W and .38 S&W - (but do not use modern factory-loaded ammo in these guns! Use only black powder cartridges); .44 Webley (obsolete); assorted rimfires (obsolete, occasionally available through importers)."
You can find more information on the following link...

http://www2.arkansas.net/~sws1/ijfaq004.htm.

Scan down about 1/3 of the page until the topic is ammunition. Read and understand the information concerning black powder and smokeless powder. Then go back to the homepage and read the rest of the information on these old guns. It's pretty interesting

These guns were of pretty good quality at a pretty cheap price and they were a popular and prolific handgun back then.

I've got a Iver Johnson Model 1900 .38 S+W that I load with b/p and I've got a Iver Johnson Safety Hammerless, 3rd Model .38 S+W(coil mainspring-not really sure of the year) that I use factory smokeless powder ammunition in. Both perform well. It's fun to shoot old guns.

I also wouldn't use the Bulldog for a carry gun. However, in addition to the PA 63, you can get a nice autoloader Russian, Bulgarian or East German Makarov in .380 or 9x18 mm for around $150-$200. Very well built, fairly small and accurate to boot. 8 rounds in the mag and 1 in the chamber with a hammer block positive safety de-cocker to prevent accidental discharge. I like my Russian 9x18. Not as powerfull as the 9mm Luger (9x19), but it will stand up to a .38 Special. Check out this link too...

http://www.chuckhawks.com/baikal_IJ-70_syn.htm

 

[Stickjockey]

Big Block, where are you? This has a lot to do with the answer to your question.

 

[BigBlock]

Alright, I found the laws.

166.210 Definitions
(2) “Firearm” means a weapon, by whatever name known, which is designed to expel a projectile by the action of powder and which is readily capable of use as a weapon.

That includes antiques and black powder, right?

And also

166.250 Unlawful possession of firearms
(a) Carries any firearm concealed upon the person;

(b) Possesses a handgun that is concealed and readily accessible to the person within any vehicle

(3) Firearms carried openly in belt holsters are not concealed within the meaning of this section.

As far as I can tell, my gun is a "firearm" but not a "handgun". Does that mean it can be concealed in my vehicle? Sounds like it's the same as a long gun, legally.

Stickjockey - I am near Portland but I'm interested in the laws that govern the entire state. I know there are some restrictions in individual towns, but not many....

 

[SolaScriptura139]

Check out opencarry.org. They have a listing of open carry laws by each state. They also give ratings for each state.

 

[BigBlock]

Check out opencarry.org. They have a listing of open carry laws by each state. They also give ratings for each state.

Yes, but like everywhere else they do not define "open".

 

[Leanwolf]

BIG BLOCK - "Plus it's more for show than anything else."

B.B, by that, do you mean you want to "scare" someone???

Or do you mean you just want to "kinda brag" that you're carrying heat??

I suggest you get some training in a good self defense school, and bone up on the laws regarding "brandishing a firearm in a threatening manner." You'd be surprised at just how quickly you can end up in the slam by "brandishing a friearm."

Also, if you're thinking of real self defense, you're betting your life on a very questionable, antique handgun and caliber.

L.W.

 

[ripcurlksm]

Perhaps I am the confused newbie but, wouldnt a newer gun be more reliable then an antique if you are using it for SD?

Resepectfully,
Kevin

 

[BigBlock]

I appriciate the advice everyone, but I did not ask what kind of gun I should use or how I should use it. Doesn't anyone know what the definition of open carry is?


Let me rephrase the question. Does anybody here own a handgun and not have a CCW? Where do you put it in your car?

As far as pointing and shooting is concerned, if they threaten me they're dead, and I'm not liable, according to ORS 166.190.

 

[Outlaws]

Don't you have a local DPS website you can look at? Department of Public Safety? In AZ we have one with a PDF file to download that states everything.

For example (and this doens't apply to you unless the law says it does), AZ's open carry is any holstered pistol where a portion of the holster is visible enough for law enforcement to know it could be a holstered pistol.

 

[LHB1]

Big Block,
Asking for legal advice from a bunch of anonymous posters on the internet is not the smartest thing to do. Actually carrying a pistol without concealed permit based on such internet advice would be even less smart. You would be much safer pursuing your question with law enforcement and government agencies in your state. Even then I suspect you will get various and possibly contradictory advice.

Good shooting and be safe.
LB

 

[Stickjockey]

Stickjockey - I am near Portland but I'm interested in the laws that govern the entire state. I know there are some restrictions in individual towns, but not many....

Those "restrictions" are the reason I asked. Technically, Oregon is an "open carry" state. However, there are certain cities [coughon]PortlandEugene[/coughoff] that don't like the fact that we have a preemption clause in our statutes, and will try to nail people for the ever-happy "carrying to the public terror" or some such. IIRC, a CHL is considered a positive defense, but it still means you have to go through all the court-related brouhaha.

Also:
ORS 166.210, part (4)

(4) “Handgun” means any pistol or revolver using a fixed cartridge containing a propellant charge, primer and projectile, and designed to be aimed or fired otherwise than from the shoulder.

Your pistol is both a "firearm" and a "handgun"

A definition of "open carry" can be inferred here:

166.250 Unlawful possession of firearms. (1) Except as otherwise provided in this section or ORS 166.260, 166.270, 166.274, 166.291, 166.292 or 166.410 to 166.470, a person commits the crime of unlawful possession of a firearm if the person knowingly:

(a) Carries any firearm concealed upon the person;

(b) Possesses a handgun that is concealed and readily accessible to the person within any vehicle;

(Keep in mind this only applies to those without CHL's.)

In order to be "open carry", it would have to be readily visible to anyone looking into the vehicle, say, in a holster on the dash (we did this one in High School a lot) or in a window rack for a rifle. On the seat would be good too, as long as it wasn't under a newspaper or something. In a glove box would be okay as long as the box was locked, i.e., not "readily accessible to the person..."

Hope that helps.

 

[Stickjockey]

Can't edit my post; it keeps kicking me off. Anyway:

The above post is Oregon Law as interpreted by someone with no training in the Legal arts whatsoever. Take it for what it's worth, exactly what you paid for it.