Conical vs balls

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There's something to be said for momentum as a proxy for lethality rather than energy. (Which tends to lead one to the big and slow rounds instead of the small and zippy rounds). This definitely seems to be superior to energy in the "handgun" power ranges where the temporary cavity is just that - there's no real tissue damage except for the permanent cavity (aka "the big hole"). With more power (rifles) the temporary cavity expands so violently that tissues are destroyed and then maybe energy's the better proxy.

All that being said being hit by a big ol' chunk of lead is no fun, whatever its shape.
 
You folks have wandered into the weeds a bit...

I would say this... In Physics and Thermodynamics, there are relationships between "Work" and "Energy". A simple explanation would be that energy is the *ability* to do work. And work could be described as "how hard you have to push, multiplied by how far you pushed it".

Pushing projectiles through animals or targets is work, no two ways about it. And energy is required to make that happen. (Keep in mind that Kinetic Energy is only part of Total Mechanical Energy, and certainly not the only form of energy.) Also keep in mind that work is done on all sorts of things when a round is fired. Pushing a bullet through the air is work. Pushing air out of the way is work. Heating the air is work. Deforming the bullet is work. "Making big holes" is work. We don't necessarily find all of the work done "useful".

Unfortunately for us and gun magazine writers everywhere, the effectiveness of a round can't simply be reduced to a single value of kinetic energy. (Nor momentum. One quick example: Glaciers have INCREDIBLE amounts of mass, but only the tiniest amounts of velocity. And unless you happen to get pinned against something, getting struck by one moving at a few inches per month isn't going to be all that noticeable... Example 2 for momentum: A 150 gr bullet traveling at 3000 ft/s = ~2 slug*ft/s. A 5000lb truck moving at 1 mph (~1.47 ft/s) = ~228 slug*ft/s. Which would be more deadly, the *impact* of the truck, or the *impact* of the bullet? The truck would certainly do more to *move* your body, but it isn't remotely as likely to be lethal unless you happen to get run over, which is another problem entirely.)

Bottom line: Energy and momentum can be somewhat useful for comparing different projectiles, but they are not THE final answer in comparing effectiveness.
 
Watch this video....It's an emergency room DR. discussing real world GSW's. He also has a German accent which makes it a bit surreal. At any rate, at one point he states that handgun bullets are just not that lethal but rifle rounds are very likely to end up being deadly.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tku8YI68-JA
 
T.R. said:
A properly loaded rifle with patched round ball can be amazingly accurate.
TR
Click to expand...

What T.R. said........I have a T/C PA Hunter that will touch 3 balls at 50 yards off a bench with the right round ball load.....in this case a Buffalo Bullet .490 ball, a tight pillow ticking patch, and a 90 grain charge of Goex 3F.
At least the gun will still do it.....my eyes won't shoot to that level any more....:banghead:
 
ChasMack said:
I have been reading as of late that conical bullets are much more accurate than lead balls. That makes sense. I was wondering, can you buy conical bullets already made up or can you only get them by casting them yourself? I have not casted bullets before, so if that's the case I need to start another hobby :( Thanks for any info!
Click to expand...
Actually nothing could be further from the truth. It's you that matters.. your loading skills and patience are all of it. If anything, overall, conical bore sized bullets are more of a problem to "get right". With a long twist firearem, roundballs are supreme. With a 1-40 to 1-50 twist, you have a range of bullets that "could" be used, and when you get into the faster twists, 1-18 to say 1-32, you're going to be hard pressed to get a good roundball result with hunting loads.

As for purchase, the good old american way of life prevails and you can get just about anything you want, from boresized bullets to sabots. You can always learn casting and enjoy the experience much more and in the long run, when the fan starts running... casting might be the only option

Aloha...
 
My 1:24 twist Hawken Hunter Carbine shoots MUCH more accurately with a 385 grain Hornady Great Plains Minie than with patched round ball, which won't hit paper at 100 yards. Rifling twist rate is a factor in which is more accurate. My inline, a CVA Wolf, likes those Minies, too.

I bought a 1:48 CVA Plainsman off gunbroker.com just so I'd have something that shot RV okay. It's just kinda OK with ball or light conical. The stock doesn't fit well, it's light, so felt recoil is pretty excessive. I load it light, it still hurts. But, it shoots and for 80 bucks, it makes a pretty good gun to hang over the hearth. :D I really wanted a 1:66 for that gun, but they're hard to find in a cheap caplock. Someday, I'll have a flinter, I reckon, and of COURSE it'll have a 1:66 twist. I'd like to try a .31, though, squirrel rifle. :D I'll have to spend some money when that time comes as I'll not want a low end plinker.

Both my fast twist guns will put that Great Plains Minie into about 2" at 100 yards. They shoot sabots well, too, but I kinda prefer the full bore heavy chunka lead. :D If I wanted to shoot 240 grain .429" bullets, I'd get a .44 magnum lever carbine. I like the WHOP that big pill makes when it hits the back stop...or a deer. :D I don't know how effective a RB is, suspect it'll kill anything that needs killin'. I mean, Jim Bridger didn't have qualms about it. But, I KNOW that big Minie is deadly. I'd have no problem hunting deer and hogs with a .490" ball, though, from a rifle.
 
MCgunner said:
My 1:24 twist Hawken Hunter Carbine shoots MUCH more accurately with a 385 grain Hornady Great Plains Minie than with patched round ball, which won't hit paper at 100 yards. Rifling twist rate is a factor in which is more accurate. My inline, a CVA Wolf, likes those Minies, too.
Click to expand...

I've got a Hawken Hunter Carbine (SILE) that shoots 365 gr. maxi-balls very accurately and also shoots a cast .452 bullet/sabot in 1" groups at 100 yards.

I bought it in the 1980s and love it.
 
I typically shoot round balls out of revolver. They seem to load easier than conical and give a decent accuracy, at least out to 50 yds.
I had a rifle with 1:48 twist which was supposed to shoot conicals and roundballs equally well. Perhaps a better description was it was equally inaccurate with both of them. Bought a follow-on rifle with twist set slow for patched round ball. Accuracy was much improved and fairly impressive, at least out to 100 yds. (never shot beyond that) Recommend getting a rifle with rate of twist specifically designed for either conical or designed for round ball to get the best accuracy out of whatever you choose. Avoid those rifles with an in-between twist.
The professional buffalo hunters ended shooting mostly .50 to .45 caliber rifles that shot long heavy conical bullets, weighing 400-600 grains. They were shooting at ranges of around 200+ yds typically. The rifles they used were probably the pinnacle of accuracy and power for black powder rifles. Their choices would swing the argument to the conical bullet.
 
Yet in Africa there were others using huge 2-8 bore slow twist ball shooters to good affect on large dangerous game. I think Samuel Baker was said to regularly shoot big game at over 400 yards with a 4 bore rifle, rate of twist measured in feet.. Most of us mortals would probably be a lot more comfortable with a 50 shooting 500 grain bullets but still round ball shooters can equal the accuracy, even over extreme ranges, of conical shooters.
 
woodnbow said:
Yet in Africa there were others using huge 2-8 bore slow twist ball shooters to good affect on large dangerous game. I think Samuel Baker was said to regularly shoot big game at over 400 yards with a 4 bore rifle, rate of twist measured in feet.. Most of us mortals would probably be a lot more comfortable with a 50 shooting 500 grain bullets but still round ball shooters can equal the accuracy, even over extreme ranges, of conical shooters.
Click to expand...
Actually aint it all in feet... I mean... 1:48 = 1 in 4 feet... my 1-70 is almost 1-6 feet...

I know... the missuse already done tol me... who needs a smart ass.... :D

I do get the point though nothin stops a good sized lead ball...

Aloha....
 
In Samuel Baker's book "The Nile Tributaries of Abyssinia" he describes an incident where a native wanted to try to shoot his 4 bore named "Baby." After seeing Baker shoot the half-pound ball, the native backed up against a tree to brace himself. Result = a broken shoulder and a cuss-out from Baker.
 
Rattus58 said:
Actually aint it all in feet... I mean... 1:48 = 1 in 4 feet... my 1-70 is almost 1-6 feet...

I know... the missuse already done tol me... who needs a smart ass.... :D

I do get the point though nothin stops a good sized lead ball...

Aloha....
Click to expand...
Now I know why they call you Rattus... :scrutiny:

One of the 8 bore rifles had one turn in 10 feet of bullet travel... I guess those big balls don' need much twist to stabilize... :)

Pato... OUCH!
 
As I see it the only reason they went to conicals was to deliver more lead to the target. A round ball can practically be only one weight but a conical can, with in reason be as heavy as you want. The conicals are harder to load due to possible canting or of deformation while loading, on the other hand you can't cant a round ball.
 
I know on my Pietta 58 Remmy .44, heavy conicals proved disappointing. Unlike the Uberti, the Pietta rifling twist was too slow to stabilize them, also the Uberti rifling grooves are 0.010” deep, while the Pietta are only 0.005”. A 185 grain semi-wadcutter has proved the most accurate conical yet, but still not satisfied and will be trying some 165 grainers.
 
Just came to me recollections of the old Schutzen rifles and their false muzzles for long range BP match competition back in the day. Were those fellows not "top flight" shooters? They were shooting conicals. Conicals have an advantage in ballistic coefficient for long range shooting. Perhaps that's why they used 'em in those fancy dan Schutzen guns? The false muzzle insured they loaded straight.
 
A Pietta Remington will prove very accurate with it's 1-32 twist rate with both ball and conical. Loading conicals in the chambers with the ram on the gun isn't loading straight and true. Try a conversion cylinder by R&D or Kirst Konverter and those 45 conicals loaded straight and true will be very accurate from the Pietta Rem barrel with the 1-32 twist rate.
Using a good bullet designed to load true into the percussion cylinder can be as accurate as the conical from the cartridge conversion cylinder. The percussion conical needs a heel to the bullet that fits into the chamber snug enough to set it in straight. The heel needs to be snug but loose enough to go in. A heel the same size as the chamber will be too tight to go in. A slightly smaller heel to the bullet lets it in but can cant a small amount.
Thing is......the slight cant to a slightly loose conical bullets heel is minimized a great deal by.....the chamber swagging the front of the heel bullet to the chambers size.......then the rams plunger swagges lead from the front of the bullet against the chamber walls and shapes the nose in the process. In essence the bullet going in at a slight cant straightens itself out as it conforms to the chamber walls with the help of the plunger on the gun. The slight loose to the heel of the bullet is closed against the chamber walls when the soft lead swags from the wack the powder blast gives the rear of the bullets.
Therefore if a shooter uses the right sized heeled bullet of pure lead it will load straight and true enough to shoot as accurate as the 45 bullet from a cartridge loaded in a conversion cylinder if......the chambers diameter matches the barrels rifling groove diameter or is a couple of .001's in. larger. The chambers of the percussion revolvers are usually sized smaller in diameter compared to the chambers and......undersized chambers in a percussion cylinder size the bullets small and if the soft lead doesn't obtruate there will be erratic gas blow-by at the muzzle to disrupt the accuacy. Chambers have to be close enough in diameter compared to the rifling groove diameter. That gives better accuracy to balls or conical bullets. Measuring the percussion revolvers chambers can show that a lot of them are actually slightly funnel shaped. That mis-shapes balls or conicals. Reaming gets the walls of the chambers parallel.
Then of course the balls can fire accurate enough from the percussion cylinder as well.
Any rifle or handgun loaded well with a projectile that suits the rifling twist will be able to find a powder load to shoot well if the bullet loads straight and true.
The rifling twist of .010 inch deep isma little too deep and the .004-5 deeprifling twist is about prime as can be seen in so many guns with that shallow grooves. The shallow grooves gripthe right size bullet and deform it less entering the lead-in tothe rifling. The less the good bullet is deformed entering the rifling the better. Getting a bullet to fill the deeper grooves of .010 in. is more difficult to get a good seal from the bullet. Gas escaping eratically at the muzzle from a bullet not sealing the bore well is like shooting a gun with a bad crown to the muzzle.
Anywhoooo.....loading the bullets on the market straight into the muzzles of muzzleloading rifles is more difficult when they aren't sized the right diameter to suit the bore. The idea of the muzzles of so many commercially made ML rifles having the "QLA" reamed muzzles that give a support to the bullets to set them straight in the muzzle before they are punched into the rifling is a "Godsent" to the rifle shooters. Wonder whobrought that idea to the fore front of the commercially produced ML rifles?
Example.....size a bullet of pure lead a couple of .001's over bore diameter(land to land diameter) and load that straight and true with the help of the over bored reamed muzzles so many guns have now ,or even into a rifle without the reamed muzzle(that emmulates the false muzzles of yesteryear), and it'll shoot well from the right twist and depth of grooves to the rifling.
The use of a thick skirted hollow base can help too.
Anywhoooooo......I'm just going over what's already been mentioned about loading the proper way to get balls or bullets to shoot well. Start with the revelation of what rifling twist there is to begin with because without the right rifling twist and groove depth the projectiles won't shoot well.
I'd say when a proper sized projectile doesn't shoot well from a rifling twist and groove depth that suits it ....the person loading is doing something wrong. Loading the conicals straight in a muzzle loader rifle barrel is importent and is possible but the barrel needs the right twist and groove depth to the rifling.
Making a sizer to size conicals is a good thing too. Get a thick piece of metal and get the right size hole in it to tap the bullets thru to size the conicals if need be. A slight funnel or parallel sided reaming to the beginning of the hole to start the bullets straight into the sizer helps alot as does the right lubrication to the bullets going thru the sizer.
Of course it was E.Kieth that related......there's no better killer of man or beast than the lead round ball. The wound channel the balls make are different than other projctiles and are very leathal. In the book by Kieth it's related that the Civil War veterans said the balls took the fight out of the enemy better than the conicals from the Colt Navy revolvers they used.
 
rifle said:
A Pietta Remington will prove very accurate with it's 1-32 twist rate with both ball and conical. Loading conicals in the chambers with the ram on the gun isn't loading straight and true. Try a conversion cylinder by R&D or Kirst Konverter and those 45 conicals loaded straight and true will be very accurate from the Pietta Rem barrel with the 1-32 twist rate.
Using a good bullet designed to load true into the percussion cylinder can be as accurate as the conical from the cartridge conversion cylinder. The percussion conical needs a heel to the bullet that fits into the chamber snug enough to set it in straight. The heel needs to be snug but loose enough to go in. A heel the same size as the chamber will be too tight to go in. A slightly smaller heel to the bullet lets it in but can cant a small amount.
Thing is......the slight cant to a slightly loose conical bullets heel is minimized a great deal by.....the chamber swagging the front of the heel bullet to the chambers size.......then the rams plunger swagges lead from the front of the bullet against the chamber walls and shapes the nose in the process. In essence the bullet going in at a slight cant straightens itself out as it conforms to the chamber walls with the help of the plunger on the gun. The slight loose to the heel of the bullet is closed against the chamber walls when the soft lead swags from the wack the powder blast gives the rear of the bullets.
Therefore if a shooter uses the right sized heeled bullet of pure lead it will load straight and true enough to shoot as accurate as the 45 bullet from a cartridge loaded in a conversion cylinder if......the chambers diameter matches the barrels rifling groove diameter or is a couple of .001's in. larger. The chambers of the percussion revolvers are usually sized smaller in diameter compared to the chambers and......undersized chambers in a percussion cylinder size the bullets small and if the soft lead doesn't obtruate there will be erratic gas blow-by at the muzzle to disrupt the accuacy. Chambers have to be close enough in diameter compared to the rifling groove diameter. That gives better accuracy to balls or conical bullets. Measuring the percussion revolvers chambers can show that a lot of them are actually slightly funnel shaped. That mis-shapes balls or conicals. Reaming gets the walls of the chambers parallel.
Then of course the balls can fire accurate enough from the percussion cylinder as well.
Any rifle or handgun loaded well with a projectile that suits the rifling twist will be able to find a powder load to shoot well if the bullet loads straight and true.
The rifling twist of .010 inch deep isma little too deep and the .004-5 deeprifling twist is about prime as can be seen in so many guns with that shallow grooves. The shallow grooves gripthe right size bullet and deform it less entering the lead-in tothe rifling. The less the good bullet is deformed entering the rifling the better. Getting a bullet to fill the deeper grooves of .010 in. is more difficult to get a good seal from the bullet. Gas escaping eratically at the muzzle from a bullet not sealing the bore well is like shooting a gun with a bad crown to the muzzle.
Anywhoooo.....loading the bullets on the market straight into the muzzles of muzzleloading rifles is more difficult when they aren't sized the right diameter to suit the bore. The idea of the muzzles of so many commercially made ML rifles having the "QLA" reamed muzzles that give a support to the bullets to set them straight in the muzzle before they are punched into the rifling is a "Godsent" to the rifle shooters. Wonder whobrought that idea to the fore front of the commercially produced ML rifles?
Example.....size a bullet of pure lead a couple of .001's over bore diameter(land to land diameter) and load that straight and true with the help of the over bored reamed muzzles so many guns have now ,or even into a rifle without the reamed muzzle(that emmulates the false muzzles of yesteryear), and it'll shoot well from the right twist and depth of grooves to the rifling.
The use of a thick skirted hollow base can help too.
Anywhoooooo......I'm just going over what's already been mentioned about loading the proper way to get balls or bullets to shoot well. Start with the revelation of what rifling twist there is to begin with because without the right rifling twist and groove depth the projectiles won't shoot well.
I'd say when a proper sized projectile doesn't shoot well from a rifling twist and groove depth that suits it ....the person loading is doing something wrong. Loading the conicals straight in a muzzle loader rifle barrel is importent and is possible but the barrel needs the right twist and groove depth to the rifling.
Making a sizer to size conicals is a good thing too. Get a thick piece of metal and get the right size hole in it to tap the bullets thru to size the conicals if need be. A slight funnel or parallel sided reaming to the beginning of the hole to start the bullets straight into the sizer helps alot as does the right lubrication to the bullets going thru the sizer.
Of course it was E.Kieth that related......there's no better killer of man or beast than the lead round ball. The wound channel the balls make are different than other projctiles and are very leathal. In the book by Kieth it's related that the Civil War veterans said the balls took the fight out of the enemy better than the conicals from the Colt Navy revolvers they used.
Click to expand...
Long read, but it does not change my OP statement.

I have the Kirst .45 Colt CC, it is actualy worse than the percussion as to being inaccurate with heavy conicals.

P1010001-17.jpg

P1010004-8.jpg

And I do have a few years of experience with black powder arms.

http://hstrial-rchambers.homestead.com/Index.html
 
My 40 year old "built from kit" , .50 cal. T.C. Hawkin is very accurate with both patched round balls,(target) and Conicals (Hunting).
For patched .490 balls I shoot a .013" patch and .45 Grains of FFFg!
My hunting load is a Home Cast 375 Grain Maxi- Ball over 90 Grains of FFG.
A little experienting is both fun and helpful.
 
Zeke/PA said:
My 40 year old "built from kit" , .50 cal. T.C. Hawkin is very accurate with both patched round balls,(target) and Conicals (Hunting).
For patched .490 balls I shoot a .013" patch and .45 Grains of FFFg!
My hunting load is a Home Cast 375 Grain Maxi- Ball over 90 Grains of FFG.
A little experienting is both fun and helpful.
Click to expand...
TC Hawken has a 1:48 twist, not the best for ball, or conical, but does a fair job with either.

This is my old style stocked .45 TC with new style lock, but it has a 32" Orion Barrel, and it is my most accurate rocklock.

TCOrion2.jpg
 
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