Conicals for Uberti Walker.

[EvilGenius]

Might do some hog hunting later this fall and want to take my Walker as a BUG. I trust its reliability enough to use it for such and I'll be hunting along side some buddies who'd back me up as well as would like a chance to shoot it on their property.

I do, however, somewhat question it's capability with the use of just regular round ball. Close range would be the needed usage distance, so BC shouldnt be an issue, but I want something that would penetrate a little better.

I also just want to see how it performs differently on the range between ball and conical.

Suggestions?

 

[rodwha]

There's actually a fellow who uses a RB with 60-66 grns of 2F Triple 7 and claims the wound is much nastier than Kaido's 240 grn FN bullets under 25 yds.

Like you, I prefer having a higher sectional density for more certain penetration, especially if quite a bit of hard stuff is hit.

Kaido sells his cast 240 and 255 grn bullets at $50/100 + shipping, which is why I designed bullets with Accurate Molds. It has a good reputation though. Try getting in touch with DD4lifeusmc as he sells 195 grn SWC's that may do well, and his prices are much more reasonable (something like $15/100 + shipping). I've tried them and they do well in my Ruger. He has a couple of other designs too.

I designed a WFN that is about the same length as a ball (.460") so as not to take up powder capacity. It weighs 195 grns. I also designed a very heavy bullet (285 grns) with the same very wide meplat for such stuff, but it blew up a fellow's Walker with 40 grns of Pyrodex. It was an ASM, which by many accounts had quality issues. I designed it for my Ruger Old Army with it's smaller powder capacity and high strength.

 

[EvilGenius]

Cool. I'll look into those!

Also, for refernce I've been using .454 round balls and they fit great in all chambers. Does it make sense that a .454 conical would fit well too, or do I have to think differently with longer projectiles?

I also had read that there's potential issues with the bore/rifling being a larger diameter than the cylinders?

 

[rodwha]

If your chambers are smaller than the .454" ball it ought to do well with a conical of that size I'd think.

You may want to try a .457" ball as well as it will give a slightly longer bearing surface creating a little more friction which increases the pressure, which increases the velocity. Some claim it improves their accuracy too.

I know Kaido's 240 grn bullet, made for repros, is .456". His 255 grn is .460" and made for Rugers.

Mine are .456" and are made for both, but the chambers of my Pietta '58 have been reamed to .449" and chamfered.

Most repros do have larger groove diameters over chambers. Mostly with Pietta I think. Ream the chambers to or close to groove diameter if you can.

 

[rodwha]

Here is my 195 grn WFN:

http://accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=45-195C-D.png

And here is my 285 grn WFN:

http://accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=45-285C-D.png

I love a wide meplat for things that may want to bite. If I get no expansion I still create a nice wound!

 

[elhombreconnonombre]

I've been looking for a conical bullet mold that approximates the dimensions and weight of the original 220 grain needle nose picket conical. As far as I can determine the only replica Walker mold (from Pedersoli) produces a 170 grain needle nose conical. I don't know if the conical Walker bullet mold for the 2nd or 3rd gen Walkers produce an accurate replica of the original conical. I have posed this question over on the Colt forum with no responses. I think I did the same here a couple months ago, but perhaps if anyone here has a 2nd/3rd gen Walker conical mold, they can put calipers to it and provide some dimensions. I did come up with an interesting non authentic experimental conical using an old teardrop fishing sinker mold. The back end of this conical is hemispherical while the front end comes to a point. It weights in at 220 grains and fits into the loading aperture of my ASM Walker. It shaves a nice lead ring and creates a bearing surface like a round ball, but I hav'nt shot it yet. I havnt determined how much powder can be loaded, but I don't think anywhere close to 60 grains with a wad on top, due to the bullets length.

 

[swathdiver]

Why don't you read up on the how and the why the Walker was made. Then you would not question its ability to drop a horse from 75 yards with a round ball or picket bullet.

50 grains of Triple 7/SWISS powder and a round ball will be running over 1000 fps and blow two holes in a big hog's shoulders, not to mention a white tail deer to at least 50 yards.

If you're hunting in cover or want to reach out past 50 yards on tough game, get the Kaido Conicals, there's none better.

Those early picket bullets with their points are nowhere near as effective as the LFN design, not even close. This is why the South preferred round ball over the conicals of the time.

NEI and Rapine used to make those 215-220 ish pointed conicals. Pedersoli has a Walker Mold - 034U292440.

 

[Hellgate]

The LEE 200gr 44 C&B bullet is just fine. It has driving bands that increase as you go toward the bullet nose which make the bullet line up into the chambers nicely. The molds are easy to use, cheap, and will last for thousands of rounds.

Check out the one in the middle for the Walker and Remington Repros. Not all Colts will accept the LEE conical (none of the 44 "Navies", some ASM 1860 Armies, maybe some Ubertis and none of the Piettas will.

http://leeprecision.com/bullet-casting/black-powder-molds/black-powder-conical-cap-and-ball/

 

[mec]

the 200 grain lee conical over 45 grains of SWISS does 1074 fps from my walker. The same charge of pyrodex P clocked 1087. 40 grains of goex fffg clocked 927 fps.

454 and 457 balls are very accurate from my revolver. I have clocked 60 grains of goex at 1115 and 1278 with the same charge of swiss. the samve volume of Pyrodex P did 1221 fps and pyrodex RS clocked 1045

A charge of H777 equivalent to 37 grains of goex fffg cloced 1201.
The Higher velocity balls vs the lower velocity but high bc bullets meet somewhere in the middle and, as I recall, pretty much cancel out any advantage one might have over the other at practical handgun distances.

 

[Trek]

Hey Rodwa,
What is that step at the base of your 15 Grain Bullet Mold for? Is that for a Gas Check?

 

[Trek]

Hellgate,
Why won't the Pietta revolvers accept the Lee 200 grain conicals? Is it the diameter, or will the bullets not fit into the loading window? Are you talking about all the Pietta revolvers, including the Remington NMA revolvers, or just the 1860 Colts?

 

[rodwha]

Trek: For cap n ball bullets/conicals you want an undersized base that will just slip into the chambers. I designed them to work even in the greatly undersized chambers of a Pietta, and so they are .445".

The Pietta's frame sticks out too far to allow most bullets to be set into the chamber and then rotated, but the ram also protrudes into the loading window as well.

 

[Hellgate]

Trek,
Take a look at some ORIGINAL Colt 1860 Armies and a careful look will show how much more metal has been relieved from under the arbor. Check antique collector auction sites. There is a TON of room on the originals. The repros have not bothered to grind off metal from under the barrel so only the round balls fit under the rammer on most 1860s. Forget about the "Navy" versions. They are a roundball only gun. The originals had to accommodate pointed combustible cartridges so Colt removed a lot of metal under the rammer so they would fit. I can get my ASM 1860 Hartford model to take a 200gr conical with some jiggleing. It is very accurate. I've not been able to seat a conical in a Pietta (I've had two). You'd need a seating press for the removed cylinder which to me is a PITA. I'm talking Colts here. The Remington Piettas take the LEE 200 gr conical just fine.

 

[Trek]

Thanks for that information Rodwa and Hellgate. I thought that was the problem. I have noticed that for some reason, on the Pietta 1858 Remington Revolvers the loading plunger sticks out into the loading window, whereas in the Originals and in the Uberti Remingtons, it does not.

Rodwa, do the bullets from your 195 Grain Accurate mold fit into the loading window of a Pietta 1858 Remington NMA revolver so that they can be loaded on the revolver?

 

[elhombreconnonombre]

Rodwha
The hemispherical back end of my experimental teardrop "sinker" Walker conical bullet easily allows insertion into the cylinder chamber.
Trek
I too have noticed that the loading plunger on the Pietta 1858 extends into
the loading aperature when the loading lever is secure in its catch. Both of my new Piettas are like this, but my older pair is not...quien sabe porque la differencia???

 

[rodwha]

Trek: It does fit under the plunger/ram, but neither of the lighter two bullets will seat into the cylinder and then turn into place under the plunger so I opened it all up. There's too much meat on the frame.

Mr No Name: Do you have problems seating those "conicals" straight? Mine posting a pic of one?

 

[elhombreconnonombre]

I have reworked the ram to accept the pointy conical and also very carefully line up the bullet in the apertute before fully inserting to insure it goes in completely straight. I only have a cell phone to take/post pics. Sometimes it works...sometimes not. Ill try again.

 

[EvilGenius]

Thanks for the responses guys!

I guess my uneasiness of just the round ball is that back when the gun was designed just putting a hole deep enough into someone was usually enough to "kill" them back then.

 

[rodwha]

Though a RB may defy what's been said it's still a slave to physics, and cannot do what a conical/bullet can. With that in mind a ball may be able to expand more than a RN or pointy type original conical.

My bet would be on a WFN design, which is why I designed my bullets that way. If I get no expansion as a few have claimed it still generates a big hole, more so than any other design, and if it does expand it begins from those dimensions, though it may hurt overall penetration figures compared to the same thing not meant to expand as much (pointy RN).