Considering trading my AR-10 for a bolt gun (.308)

[valnar]

When I decided upon my own .308 platform, I bought a slightly modified Tikka. It does shoot MOA if I do my part. Would it be better than yours? Probably not.

My reasoning was financial. If it cost me over $1 every time I pull the trigger, I purposely didn't want a semi-auto action. I leave that to less calibers. But honestly if you already have that with your MSR-10, just keep it.

 

[TonyAngel]

I'd keep the .308 AR and start putting money away for a bolt gun. For hunting, the other guys are right. There's overall accuracy and then there's accurate enough. If yours shoots MOA that's more than accurate enough for hunting.

Still, if I'm going out and will be doing nothing but long range shooting, I prefer a bolt gun. Not just the action, but the form of a conventional rifle. I'm not crazy about all of the chassis based stuff that's out now. I got to shoot the Daniel Defense chassis this past weekend. It was nice, but I can really snuggle up to a Remington 700 action based rifle very comfortably. Much more comfortably than I can with something like an AR.

I tend to shoot better with a conventional bolt action. I think it's the ergonomics. My last bolt action that I had "built" was a plain Jane 700 action with a Krieger barrel that a local gunsmith assembled for me. I've gotta warn you, that rifle took me down a DEEP rabbit hole. When I shot my first group whose measurement started with a "0" I got a sickness that took a very long time to get over.

In any case, I'd say keep the AR10 and look forward to the bolt gun. Then you can figure out how to manage that Razor or nightforce you're gonna want to put on top of it. Lol

 

[David Hoback]

I'd keep the .308 AR and start putting money away for a bolt gun. For hunting, the other guys are right. There's overall accuracy and then there's accurate enough. If yours shoots MOA that's more than accurate enough for hunting.

Still, if I'm going out and will be doing nothing but long range shooting, I prefer a bolt gun. Not just the action, but the form of a conventional rifle. I'm not crazy about all of the chassis based stuff that's out now. I got to shoot the Daniel Defense chassis this past weekend. It was nice, but I can really snuggle up to a Remington 700 action based rifle very comfortably. Much more comfortably than I can with something like an AR.

I tend to shoot better with a conventional bolt action. I think it's the ergonomics. My last bolt action that I had "built" was a plain Jane 700 action with a Krieger barrel that a local gunsmith assembled for me. I've gotta warn you, that rifle took me down a DEEP rabbit hole. When I shot my first group whose measurement started with a "0" I got a sickness that took a very long time to get over.

In any case, I'd say keep the AR10 and look forward to the bolt gun. Then you can figure out how to manage that Razor or nightforce you're gonna want to put on top of it. Lol

I do agree with you. I have always loved my ARs. AR15’s that is. But if I needed to reach out & touch something past 500,600yds, it would be with my bolt action.

 

[citizenconn]

My MSR-10 shoots about 1moa when I use 165-180gr Accubonds for reference. So for a bolt gun I would want to be able to shoot .75moa or so but I do not know how much more accurate I can count on a factory bolt shooting.

What is the barrel length on your AR-10? I've have .308 ARs from 16-24". Other than some increased velocity with the 24"ers which does help me shoot higher percentages from 800-1100 yards, there are not a lot of advantages to a barrel length greater than 20."
I think the majority of target bolt guns are 20" as well, though there are a few 24" ones.

I have put adjustable gas blocks on my dedicated target .308 ARs (20-24") so I can shut off the gas which I find helps my accuracy a bit. You can also true the barrel which might or might not result in an accuracy increase. If you aren't careful you can also mess it up easily. From 300-1300 yards I'm mainly shooting 1 and 2 moa steel so I'm not necessarily measuring groups.

My .308 bolt guns ( 20 & 24") are all aluminum pillar bedded chassis guns, and I do think they do shoot a bit tighter groups than my ARs. But I think if 8 or 9 out of 10 shooters shot both they probably could not shoot to the accuracy potential of either type. I see a lot of shooters focusing on zeroing the gun when after a point they would probably get more gains focusing on zeroing themselves.

I put together my own ARs, and I don't have personal experience on the Savage MSRs, so I don't know what barrels they are using to know if they are capable of what you want to do. You can get some excellent precision rifles between $1000-1500. The downside could be they are more limited than your MSR in the varied types of shooting you can do with it.

I also wonder what kind of reticle is on the scope you are using on your MSR. Reticle type can make a significant difference in shooting smaller groups as well. Just another factor to think about.

If I had to pick between having one AR-10 in .308 vs one chassis bolt gun in .308, I'd probably stick with the AR because I could use it for a variety of things whereas a bolt gun can be limiting. Though if you switch to a bolt gun you need to make sure it has a quality stock or chassis and not a flimsy plastic piece of garbage. I'd also probably also switch to 6.5 Creedmoor because it will extend the target shots you can make by 300-400 yards. Shoot more before you decide. Let someone you know that can shoot well see what the gun is capable of as well before you decide. Best of luck.

 

[jmr40]

The odds are strongly in favor of a bolt rifle being more accurate than an AR10 if both are at the same price point. Probably so even if the bolt rifle is 1/2 the cost of the AR10. Semi-autos can be remarkably accurate, but it takes more money and effort to get there.

The bolt gun has other advantages too. It is hard to get a scoped AR10 under 10 lbs. It is easy to get an equally accurate bolt gun closer to 7 lbs scoped. As a hunting rifle in rugged terrain that alone is the clencher for me.

You can also load a much wider range of loads that will function reliably in a bolt rifle. Semi-autos need to have loads within a relatively narrow range of pressures to function. You can load up hot, or very mild loads for a bolt gun that would never function in a semi-auto.

You can get off multiple shots faster with the semi, but for a hunting rifle that isn't nearly as important as a lot of folks think. And someone who practices and masters a bolt action they can be pretty fast. I've gotten off 3 shots in just under 2 seconds before.

Not trading a perfectly good AR10 for anything. Skip lunch at work for a few months, then just buy a bolt action something.

And that isn't bad advice. Some budget bolt guns are amazingly accurate. You can pick up something in the $400-$500 range and keep the AR. You don't really need to spend more than $600-$700.

 

[citizenconn]

You can pick up something in the $400-$500 range and keep the AR. You don't really need to spend more than $600-$700.

Yes, for the action, but is it going to have a quality stock on it? I really like the Savage 10/110 actions, but the standard stocks they have in the price range you indicated are less than desirable and adversely affect the repeatable accuracy in my opinion. I put almost all my bolt actions in chassis stocks (which I know not everyone likes), but MDT and also their Oryx stocks have some very nice hybrid stocks that are pretty reasonable that will also greatly increase the repeatability and thus the accuracy of the rifles, like this new Field Stock for under $300 US.

https://oryxchassis.ca/oryx-field-stock/


Which rifle models would you suggest in the price range you listed? I may be missing out on something.

 

[BigAlShooter]

I say keep the AR-10 and save up for a bolt action. I have a DPMS LR-308 with a 24" bull barrel and it is easily less than 1MOA with the right reloads. I also have a $600 Rem SPS "tactical" 20" bull barrel bolt action that is probably 0.5MOA with the right reloads. Each gun has its advantage. The 20" is great for hunting and carrying in thick woods or in a tree stand. The 24" heavy LR-308 is mainly a bench gun that is great for shooting 20 rounds at a time at long ranges.

 

[lightman]

I love my bolt guns but I like having a semi-auto 308 around. Personally I would keep it and save for a bolt gun.

 

[CoalCrackerAl]

Sellers remorse sucks. If you like your AR10. Keep it and save up for a 308 bolt action.

 

[Turkeytider]

Yes, for the action, but is it going to have a quality stock on it? I really like the Savage 10/110 actions, but the standard stocks they have in the price range you indicated are less than desirable and adversely affect the repeatable accuracy in my opinion. I put almost all my bolt actions in chassis stocks (which I know not everyone likes), but MDT and also their Oryx stocks have some very nice hybrid stocks that are pretty reasonable that will also greatly increase the repeatability and thus the accuracy of the rifles, like this new Field Stock for under $300 US.

https://oryxchassis.ca/oryx-field-stock/
View attachment 1098167

Which rifle models would you suggest in the price range you listed? I may be missing out on something.

I assume that any inaccuracies associated with the stock on Savage rifles has to do with flex related to recoil. If that’s an incorrect assumption on my part, I welcome correction. If , however, my assumption is accurate, then at what caliber does recoil begin to impact the stock? I know that recoil from my 110 in .223 does not seem to be an issue.

 

[citizenconn]

I assume that any inaccuracies associated with the stock on Savage rifles has to do with flex related to recoil. If that’s an incorrect assumption on my part, I welcome correction. If , however, my assumption is accurate, then at what caliber does recoil begin to impact the stock? I know that recoil from my 110 in .223 does not seem to be an issue.

Yes you are correct about the inaccuracies and the flex in the stock. I bought a couple of Savage tactical 300 blk rifles that come in terrible plastic stocks, but before I changed them over to new stocks I took them out and shot them to see how they would fare.

I confirmed that both barrels were free-floated, then started shooting, about 15 seconds between shots. The groups were great for 3 shots then threw filers like crazy on the 4th and 5th shots. I checked the barrels after the 5th shots and they had shifted significantly and were no longer free floating.

I let them cool down for a few minutes, re-confirmed free-float, and shot another round to have the same thing happen. The fliers were still minute of hog or deer if you were hunting, but not sub-moa as the first 3 shots were. I had 3 different shooters repeat the process to rule out shooter bias and got the same results.

I don't know what caliber it might start with. These were .30 cal with large barrels. With thinner barrels it would probably not be as much of an issue. But every action I've moved from a cheapo plastic stock to a chassis stopped having fliers.

I'm not against polymer stocks overall. I have a few Savages in HS Precision stocks and those are great stocks. But the cheapo polymer ones I've bought with the firing group inserts are just bad. Your mileage may vary.

 

[12Bravo20]

Some guys will embed an aluminum arrow shaft into the fore ends of factory Savage synthetic stocks which does seem to help with flex.

I am slowly converting all of my bolt action rifles over to chassis stocks due to injuries and bad arthritis. I can't bend my wrists to get a comfortable grip on a traditional stock anymore.

 

[citizenconn]

Some guys will embed an aluminum arrow shaft into the fore ends of factory Savage synthetic stocks which does seem to help with flex.

I am slowly converting all of my bolt action rifles over to chassis stocks due to injuries and bad arthritis. I can't bend my wrists to get a comfortable grip on a traditional stock anymore.

I am with you on the chassis stocks. I love them and since I mostly hunt with a lightweight AR I don't have to worry about carrying a heavy chassis stock in the deer woods. Though I do have a Sig Cross in 6.5 CR, very light, that is basically a bolt action AR framed gun.

 

[marksman13]

This looks nice, I will probably order it. Thanks!

Not trying to talk you out of it, but in a hunting rifle, I really prefer the Luth-AR fixed stock for the weight reduction.

 

[troy fairweather]

Not trying to talk you out of it, but in a hunting rifle, I really prefer the Luth-AR fixed stock for the weight reduction.

Think one of them is going on my ar next, price is not to bad for the fixed.

 

[Nature Boy]

I had an M1A and after all the load development and accurizing I was able to get consistent 0.75 MOA 5 shot groups.

When that wasn’t good enough I bought an .308 FN SPR and after a lot of load development got it shooting consistent 0.5 MOA 5 shot groups

When that wasn’t good enough I had a custom.308 built and after a lot of load development I was getting consistent 0.3 MOA 5 shot groups

When that wasn’t good enough I had another custom rifle built in 6BRA and after a lot of load development I was getting consistent 0.2 MOA 5 shot groups

When that’s not good enough I’ll find another hobby

The accuracy addition is real

 

[12Bravo20]

For those considering the Luth-AR stocks. yes they are light weight. But they are pretty flimsy and cheap feeling. I have a Luth-AR MBA-1 and MBA-4 along with MagPul Gen 2 and Gen 3 PRS and PRS Lite. There is a nigh and day difference between the Luth-AR and MagPul stocks. I suggest taking a look at the MagPul PRS Lite if weight is a concern.

Plus the MagPul PRS Lite can be found right around $110 and Arm Or Ally has the Gen 3 PRM for $192 (versus $245 MSRP)

With all that, I did have to go with the Luth-AR MBA-4 on my Rigid Alloy Savage MkII chassis to get the length of pull where I needed it. The PRS Lite was too long even when fully collapsed. This is due to how the chassis is made.

 

[marksman13]

For those considering the Luth-AR stocks. yes they are light weight. But they are pretty flimsy and cheap feeling. I have a Luth-AR MBA-1 and MBA-4 along with MagPul Gen 2 and Gen 3 PRS and PRS Lite. There is a nigh and day difference between the Luth-AR and MagPul stocks. I suggest taking a look at the MagPul PRS Lite if weight is a concern.

Plus the MagPul PRS Lite can be found right around $110 and Arm Or Ally has the Gen 3 PRM for $192 (versus $245 MSRP)

With all that, I did have to go with the Luth-AR MBA-4 on my Rigid Alloy Savage MkII chassis to get the length of pull where I needed it. The PRS Lite was too long even when fully collapsed. This is due to how the chassis is made.

I don’t think the Luth is flimsy at all. I think it is the Magpul PRS’ equal in every way. I’ve got a couple examples of both and I like the PRS for target rifles because I like the extra weight, but everything else is getting a Luth.

 

[12Bravo20]

I don’t think the Luth is flimsy at all. I think it is the Magpul PRS’ equal in every way. I’ve got a couple examples of both and I like the PRS for target rifles because I like the extra weight, but everything else is getting a Luth.

Everyone has their own opinion and personal experiences. I stated what my own personal experiences are with both the Luth-AR and MagPul stocks. Another issue I have had with the Luth-AR stocks is that they generally have a looser fit on the buffer tubes too.

For me the Luth-AR stocks have very flimsy cheek rests that move when you press them into your cheek. That can effect accuracy. A repeatable setup is important for precise long distance shooting.

 

[marksman13]

Everyone has their own opinion and personal experiences. I stated what my own personal experiences are with both the Luth-AR and MagPul stocks. Another issue I have had with the Luth-AR stocks is that they generally have a looser fit on the buffer tubes too.

For me the Luth-AR stocks have very flimsy cheek rests that move when you press them into your cheek. That can effect accuracy. A repeatable setup is important for precise long distance shooting.

We’ve had two entirely different experiences then. I’ve never pressed my face into a rifle so hard that I moved the cheek rest.

 

[12Bravo20]

We’ve had two entirely different experiences then. I’ve never pressed my face into a rifle so hard that I moved the cheek rest.

What I am saying is that it does NOT take much pressure on the cheek riser to make them bend or move on the Luth-AR stocks.

Agree to disagree.

 

[Varminterror]

The Luth-AR uses an upside down J shaped saddle for the cheek riser. It’s clamped and supported on one side, the spine of the J bolts to the skeleton of the stock, with the curve of the J making the cheek piece over the top. In the photo above, you can see the clamping knob without any connection to the cheek riser on this side of the rifle - so you can see the end of the curve of the J at the top above the knob.

If you cheek the hell out of the rifle, that J will flex. The PRS stocks use a more rigid cheek riser design, so a guy can’t perceive the same kind of flexion even under heavy cheek weld. Is that design difference and resulting riser deflection materially significant for precision? No. I feel more give in my cheek pads than I feel in the Luth-AR riser, and the rifles shoot the same whether I’ve flexed the stock or am simply checking the hell out of it - and shoot better when I don’t do either. So I don’t find any fault in that design, personally. Does that flexion bug the hell out of some shooters? Absolutely, as we’re seeing in this thread.

The finish is a little rougher on the Luth-AR products as well than on the Magpuls, although I don’t feel it says anything about the quality of materials or manufacture. Slick plastic isn’t functionally better than textured plastic.

The PRS-Lite (or rather, UBR+) is a cleaner, more affordable option, so other than the lost buttpad adjustability it certainly makes sense.

But at the end of the day, either is kinda putting lipstick on a pig. The cost and commitment to get an AR shooting as small on average as even an inexpensive bolt gun is imbalanced here.

 

[45/30-06OKIE]

I am considering trading my Savage MSR-10 .308 in for a nice used bolt action and wanted to see if anyone had advice here. The idea is if I had a medium priced bolt gun might have a more natural feel to it and shoot tighter groups, thus allowing me to take longer shots.

My MSR-10 shoots about 1moa when I use 165-180gr Accubonds for reference. So for a bolt gun I would want to be able to shoot .75moa or so but I do not know how much more accurate I can count on a factory bolt shooting.

A possible risk I see to trading my MSR-10 is I might get a bolt gun that does not shoot sub-moa, or is simply as accurate as my MSR-10 was to begin with. If I keep the MSR-10, I know I have a pretty good pig/deer gun.

An alternative to switching would be to look at improving my form with the AR-10 platform and perhaps getting a workable range of 300yds when hunting. Right now I am only comfortable taking shots out to 200yds, which is plenty to hunt but there are some blinds where I have a shot out to 300-350yds where I hunt.

As a fellow 308 AR type fan, I will let you know that some gun shops probably wont be willing to take an ar10 in trade/barter/sale as they are considered "problem childs" by some shops lol. However, if it is a factory rifle then that might change the story. I think they get burned by people building parts guns and then having issues and trying to pass it along to a shop and them getting burned when it doesn't work right... Of course it depends on the shop, so by all means go to a LGS and see what they will give you, keeping in mind they usually will give you like 50 to 60 percent of what they think it can sell for so prepare for some very low offers... I got offered 400 bucks for my barely shot, like 200rds of m855 lol, Bushmaster M4 at an lgs right when Rona kicked off when that stuff was flying of the shelves, and like a week later sold it for 700 cash to a dude at a loves parking lot lol. What's funny is I literally saw a guy at a show sell the exact same model and same condition but black, as mine was full FDE, for 1000 cash at a gun show late last year lol.

 

[45/30-06OKIE]

While, yes, the Bolt Action will ultimately be more accurate, it doesn’t happen right out of the box. An AR style rifle can also be incredibly accurate. .25moa is not an unreachable goal. Many, many AR10’s & 15’s have accomplished this. However, it’s not easy or CHEAP! Same goes for the bolt gun.

First decide what your personal goal is. What is it you are doing primarily? Hunting? Target shooting in competition? For fun? And of course, what is your realistic budget? Not to mention your realistic skill level.. For instance, myself. I’ve done this a long time, and have a great deal of working knowledge. At one time I was very, very accurate. Unfortunately, I was disabled several years ago. To add to, my left eye is completely blind & my Right is heavily corrected with astigmatism. My Left arm is also completely paralyzed. Now, I can still shoot with decent accuracy. Meaning, I can HIT a man sized target at various distances. But shooting those teeny-tiny little groups on a target is no longer in my purview. It’s not part of my skillset any longer. Of course I still go for as accurate as I’m able, but Ultimate Accuracy is not the sole factor behind my choices. I’m a DIY guy. A Hobbyist gunsmith, builder. And even machining my own parts. That brings me joy. Im also a Savage loyalist. I very much like Savage 110 rifles, since I purchased my first one at age 18. My current bench gun is a Savage 10 Action with a considerable amount of money invested in it. While I “could” have built up a Custom Action like a Kelbly’s, Big Horn or Curtis had I been so inclined…. and yes, one of those are capable of better accuracy, it would do me bo good. My Savage Bench gun is more accurate than I am. My groups on paper would see no increase whether using it or a Custom, because my body no longer possess the tools to take advantage of the POTENTIAL better accuracy. And in the end I would not enjoy one of those as much as I enjoy working on Savage Actions. I enjoy making the Actions work better.

So do what you know will bring you the most joy that will meet your budget. I hope maybe that makes sense to some.

Glad to see someone else can appreciate the Savage 110 series! It seems like most people at gun shows see a savage 110 and cower in disgust but will pick up a Remington 700 ADL (basic as heck) and think its soooooo much better lol. I like Savage 110 and Remington 700s but I only really like to part and piece custom put together a Remington 700 from a bare action.

 

[David Hoback]

Glad to see someone else can appreciate the Savage 110 series! It seems like most people at gun shows see a savage 110 and cower in disgust but will pick up a Remington 700 ADL (basic as heck) and think its soooooo much better lol. I like Savage 110 and Remington 700s but I only really like to part and piece custom put together a Remington 700 from a bare action.

Well, honestly that’s what I like to do as well. I’ve been a Savage fan, and I like the 700 sure.., but I build ALL my own firearms anymore. I don’t buy firearms off the shelf. Including pistols. My bench rifle is likely the extreme built Savage 110 you’ll ever see. It uses custom machined parts, some parts early all Savage owners have never seen & even some Titanium for good measure. It’s unique & definitely one of a kind.