Continuing Journey to Understanding Loading .223

[9mmepiphany]

There is a downside to readily accessible YouTube videos, information overload...especially when they offer conflicting information.

I have a friend who recently got a Dillon RT 1500 case trimmer system for us on his 650. he is going to let other members of our reloading club process our cases on it.

My understanding is that, during resizing (FL for an AR), the case lengthens as the expansion button is withdrawn.

It would seem obvious to me that each case should be deprimed, resized and expanded prior to being inserted into the Trimmer.

However, the trimmer is mounted on another Sizing die, so...

Does that mean that the neck needs to be expand again after trimming?

I've watch a couple of videos with very different takes on die setup.

1. resizing die, including the expanding button, both before and after the case is trimmed.
2. a resizing die, with expansion button, only after the case is trimmed...didn't understand that at all

Hoping the collective knowledge of the Reloading Forum can help clarify this for me

Thanks

 

[Jmoreno88]

i am no pro but you should resize before you trim as that's where the length comes from. If you trim before you size then it kind of defeats the purpose of trimming since you'll have to do it again

Sent from my SM-G928V using Tapatalk

 

[Walkalong]

What sizer? Redding makes a carbide ball that can also be fitted to an RCBS sizer. I think someone else has a sizer with a carbide ball available now. Get one and quit worrying. Besides, it can, but might not.

A touch of lube on necks will stop it as well. Dip the neck of each case in graphite before putting it in the press. Or use a lightly lubed Q-Tip and stick it in each neck prior to putting in the press.

Or use a neck bushing FL sizer.

I have a carbide button on my expander type FL sizer. Works like a champ. I also have a bushing type FL sizer, but only use it with one set of matched brass that I load better bullets in. Not sure it out shoots the other set up, but that's what I do.

Resize once, prior to trimming, and even with a standard steel expander and no lube, you might not have a problem. It can happen though. Try it and see. Size without the expander, check shoulder position, size with expander and no lube, check shoulder position, size with expander and lube, check shoulder position.

information overload.

Don't you know it.

 

[Blue68f100]

Does that mean that the neck needs to be expand again after trimming?

Short answer is no. For the auto system to work it needs sized before trimming. From what I have read it seams a lot of 650 users will use 2 sizing dies to set to partial size to reduce load during the process. To confirm weather you need to or not is a very simple measurement. The ID of the neck should be 0.243-0.242" if so your good to go. If not the brass is not getting fully sized prior to trimming.

If I had to I would use a Bushing die to keep from over working the brass.

 

[wanderinwalker]

Size, then trim. The necks "shouldn't" need to be resized after trimming. Though not being familiar with the Dillon trimmer it may have something to do with how the case is aligned and fed into the cutter.

 

[Grumulkin]

Carbide buttons are great.

It's the resizing operation that lengthens the case and not so much pulling the expanding button through the neck. That's why you should trim and check for impending case head separations after sizing.

 

[Walkalong]

The expander can pull the shoulder forward, which if I read right is his worry. Looks like I read it wrong. He is getting bad info. The expander doesn't stretch the case, but it can pull the shoulder forward.

The stretching took place on firing. The case also expanded to fit the chamber and got "shorter". If any "separation" occurred, that is when it happened. That isn't normal stretching though, and is covered here. Resizing squeezes everything to a smaller diameter and the brass gets "longer".

 

[9mmepiphany]

Ok it seems my current understanding was off, more than a bit...my prior understanding was correct.

I knew the brass expanded when fired, but it is the squeezing of the resizing which causes the brass to get longer...not the expander button pulling the brass forward.

Ran 10 cases through my old RCBS resizing die last night and I can see a carbide button in my future.

Discovered that rifle cases require a bit more lube than I thought, will be calling RCBS for help with my stuck case :banghead:

 

[cfullgraf]

Discovered that rifle cases require a bit more lube than I thought, will be calling RCBS for help with my stuck case :banghead:

Most of us have probably been there a time or two.

An investment in a "Stuck Case Remover" is a good thing. They are not very expensive.

 

[hdwhit]

I think someone else has a sizer with a carbide ball available now.

Lyman makes a sizer that is available with a carbide sizer ball.

They also separately sell a sizer stem with a carbide sizer ball with an adapter for fit other maker's dies (including RCBS) as well.

Midsouth Shooters Supply sells both at a fairly good price.

 

[Walkalong]

Sure do. I don't see if they say the stem will fit RCBD sizers. Some of the reviews say it does though.

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/86...ie-with-carbide-expander-button-223-remington

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/13...xpander-decapping-die-rod-assembly-22-caliber

If the stem will fit the RCBS, it's cheaper than the Redding button.

 

[sevt_chevelle]

The Dillon trim die because it has no expander ball will not resize the neck back out, my die leaves the brass at a tight .216 ID. This is the reason why some guys use a neck die after the trim die, it also helps remove that tiny little burr left by the trimmer. IMO the best setup when using the RT1200/1500 is this.
Station 1 regular F/L size die with NO expander ball.
Station 3 trim die.
Station 5 Lyman M die or neck expanding mandrel from Brownells or 21st century shooting.

The reasoning is that a neck die can pull the case neck out of whack where as the M die or mandrel wont. Many guys on the Brian Enos site, which is a Dillon reloading hang out use this setup, along with several on Snipers hide.

I reloaded for awhile with just the size die and expander in station 1 and trim die in station 4 but also wet tumbled afterwards. Wet tumbling removes that burr and I had no problems loading without post expanding the neck. But then I changed my prep process and dont wet tumble afterwards and started shaving brass copper when I loaded bullets into those cases. Started to do some research that came across guys on the Enos site and several others running M dies or mandrels. Yes you can reload with no post expanding but you better wet tumble those cases or chamfer them.

You might also want to check out Forster as they have replacement stems for RCBS size dies that place the expander ball higher up on the stem.

 

[JimKirk]

Hornady did also make carbide expander buttons to fit RCBS dies .... I have many of them .... I don't think they do any more....

 

[Hardtarget]

I've been loading .223 for three years. I just waded in blindly. I did not know they were hard to load. I'd been loading .30-30, .30-06, .303, 7.5X55 with no problems so the .223 just fell in line and off we went!

I have only stuck two cases. Both were .223...and both came out with the stuck case remover.

Clean, lube, size, trim, load. The work flows along. A bit slow on single stage.

Mark

 

[AR-Bossman]

Short answer is no. For the auto system to work it needs sized before trimming. From what I have read it seams a lot of 650 users will use 2 sizing dies to set to partial size to reduce load during the process. To confirm weather you need to or not is a very simple measurement. The ID of the neck should be 0.243-0.242" if so your good to go. If not the brass is not getting fully sized prior to trimming.

If I had to I would use a Bushing die to keep from over working the brass.

You sure on those numbers...?

 

[3GunEric]

My 2 Cents: (Using Dillon 550b & RT1500)

1. Resize (Small Base Die w/ expander ball)
2. Then run it through RT1500

Wet tumble w/ SS pins to remove burrs.

Works for me - hope you find out what works for you.
The Dillon RT1500 case trimmer is worth every penny!

 

[9mmepiphany]

I'm curious as to why you'd need to resize twice...since the RT1500 already has a Resizing die as part of it's system.

The cleanest setup that I've been able to distill so far is:
1. Deprime...universal decapping tool
2. Swage
3. Resize and trim...in RT1500
4. Expand neck (since the RT1500 resizes tight)...Neck sizing die w/carbide ball

 

[Walkalong]

How about:

1. Resize/decap in FL sizer with carbide ball.
2. Swage
3. Trim with RT1500
4. Drop powder
5. Seat

Or:

1. Run it through steps 1, 2, & 3.

2. Chamfer/deburr if you don't think the cut is clean enough.

3. Hand Prime.

4 Load. (Or skip hand prime and include priming in loading run.)

I size on the press, then off the press I trim/chamfer/deburr, tumble, hand prime, and then run them through the press again to load.

 

[9mmepiphany]

My understanding of the RT 1500...which may be flawed...is that the sizing die incorporated into it, tends to over resize the neck. To the point that bullets might not be able to seat without shaving

 

[ArchAngelCD]

I don't know, a trimmer that costs over $300 and requires case lube to use? I like my Forester trimmer with the power adapter for large trimming jobs. The powder adapter is like $14 and most people have a cordless drill in the house already.

 

[3GunEric]

I'm curious as to why you'd need to resize twice...since the RT1500 already has a Resizing die as par it's system.


My Answer:
1. The RT1500 sizing die has no decapping/stem/expander ball ability.
2. I have 1 AR that needs Small Base.
3. Since both dies are in the 550 at the same time, it is not really extra work.

I process brass by the 1,000's and the RT1500 has made my life much easier.

You need to chose the set up that works for you. Good Luck!

 

[Walkalong]

My understanding of the RT 1500...which may be flawed...is that the sizing die incorporated into it, tends to over resize the neck. To the point that bullets might not be able to seat without shaving

Interesting, I did not realize it was tied to a sizer. I thought it just mounted on a die designed to fit the case like a seater etc. I see them on Dillon presses in the second or third step and assumed the sizing was done in the first step.

I guess I won't be getting a Dillon trimmer. I have sure considered it.

 

[sevt_chevelle]

The Dillon Rt1200/1500 trim dies are nothing more then a size die with the expander stem removed and a trimmer motor on top that trims the brass at the same time it get sized.

I think you are overlooking the fact that the trim die has no means of expanding the case mouth ID back out. I just went out to the shop and ran a piece of 223 brass into my Redding F/L size die without the expander, it measured .215-.216. Now with the expander ball back in place it measures .221. My Dillon trim die leaves the ID at .216 same size as the Redding die before the expander ball stretches it back out.

So its not that the Dillon trim die sizes the mouth down so much it just has no means of sizing it back out to the same size as a regular size die with expander ball.

As for the reason of sizing twice, for me I found I got better consistently. I find that my case "headspace" doesn't vary from 1.755 to 1.756 and the trim length doesn't vary by .001 or .002. When you run just the trim die the shell plate is loaded on just that one side tilting the shell plate. With dies on opposite sides of the shell plate it evens out.

IMO the best setup for the RT1200/1500 is.
station 1 regular size with expander ball removed.
station 3 trim die.
station 5 lyman M die or neck expanding mandrel.