Continuing the "friend or foe" discussion

[Oleg Volk]

hso, I'll make another poster with your input.

Optical Serenity,

Next time I come to Atlanta, we can get together and talk. My posters aren't anti-cop (look at who the THR mods and my other friends are!) but against a particular method of policing. I am not saying no-knocks are frequent or that mistakes are frequent, but I consider the method to be inappropriate as currently used.

 

[Herself]

I've got my "question authority" lapel button right here, OS, and I mean it, too. I'm a c-i-v-i-l-i-a-n; that means I don't have to salute the brass.

But there are levels to this. A traffic pull-over, the odds favor it being a real cop, especially if I was speeding (not that I have ever sped) or just did a moronic "deep amber" trick at a traffic light. On the other hand, if the door comes crashing in some night, the odds favor it not being a cop. And if it's not, waiting to make sure will get me killed or worse.

Nor is it a matter of "how many wrong." No-knock warrants are iffy to begin with and plain wrong when executed at the wrong address. Even it it happens only once, that's too many. Our legal system assumes innocence, not guilt. That puts the burden of getting it right when serving warrants on the police.

--Herself

 

[Optical Serenity]

Oleg, we shall! Or next time i'm up in Nashville, I was supposed to be in Brentwood last week but got called to a special detail instead...

Herself,
If you don't like no-knocks, why not petition your law makers you have voted into office to change it? Until then, it is a legal way of doing things. And guess what? There are many times when a no-knock is absolutely necessary. Whether or not you have any respect for authority, doesn't matter. There are times we go after rapists, murders, etc...and need the absolute fastest method under the sun to surprise them.

There is no part of being in law enforcement that makes it ok to get hurt. No one signs up to die or get hurt, regardless of what you may believe.

 

[carebear]

That'd be great, except no-knocks are being used for simple search warrants now. There is no evidence (especially drug) worth even a 1% risk of mistake to an innocent (non-convicted of the charge the evidence is being sought for is innocent) citizen.

For hostage rescue? Certainly.

For high-risk arrest warrant service on a parole violator (has been convicted of the crime at hand)? Probably, though tactically there might be a safer way outside the guy's home ground.

To seize evidence? Never.

 

[Optical Serenity]

Carebear,
Around these neck of the woods getting a no-knock for simple evidence collection is impossible at best. It has a to be a very serious case otherwise the judge will think we are out of our minds...

 

[Phyphor]

Possibly -- though hardly anyone knows what a warrant should look like, can at least tell them to wait while calling the local PD to inquire if their people are out witht hat warrant. Keep the hand on the claymore switch until they confirm

What do you think: keep the sub-caption or ditch it?

Lose it,

(oh, and I so wish claymores were legal for home usage. "What, you've got Brinks security? Well, I've got Claymore! Yea, no stupid phonecall asking 'Are you all right?'... instead, they ask 'Do we need to bring the mops and buckets?')

 

[Phyphor]

If I saw that outside my door, I'd jump back and start negotiating. "Wait there until I call the police station and verify that you're legit. I am armed and if you attempt to enter I will open fire." I would then take cover and draw a bead on the door (probably with a 12 ga) while I call 911. What would the likely response be? It seems to me if they were gangbangers they would leave. If they were really cops I imagine tear gas and flashbangs would come crashing through windows.

....followed swiftly by an entry team, maybe.

Or they might just back off, surround the joint, and start negotiating. If that were the case, odds are, you'd come out alive (assuming you acted rationally at this point, ) but I suspect you might have a few legal issues...

(I just don't see LEOs taking a threat like that lying down, ya know? Even though the homeowner would be in the right to do as you said.... )

 

[LAK]

I like Oleg's photo. Some of the regular ads for lights and other gear in the rack rags featuring suited and hooded folk with guns make this point very well too.
----------------------------

http://ussliberty.org
http://ssunitedstates.org

 

[Janitor]

Oleg -

First off - amazingly strong shot. Love the light. Somebody above suggested a balaclava rather than the hat. I think the hat is perfect - you want the dark man in the shadows to look like an LEO.

While I really like the 2nd version of the caption at the bottom better than the first, I'd still lose it. The inclusion of an answer feels so much like the way Hollywood 'dumbs down' movies for their American audience.

I think your thoughts come across painfully clearly with just the photo and the primary text. It's a scary photo - the question w/o an answer is (IMNSHO) more frigtening.
-

(BTW - Is that Robert in the photo?)

 

[Geno]

Doesn't "look" like a gang-banger...too clean-cut

He needs to look more crack-headish. This guy in the photo is too clean-cut.

Doc2005

 

[Kodiaz]

Oleg the second caption is a lot better.

To all the guys who don't want the caption. America has dumbed down if the caption isnt there the average person is going to look at that and say it advocates shooting cops. You have to take into account the "it can't happen to me mentality". This poster isn't targeted at us it's targeted at people that are in condition white. If you were in condition white and saw the poster that guy would automatically be a cop.

 

[Working Man]

Anyone remember hearing about the group of 8 in Dallas last year that claimed
to be Police/SWAT, gained access to the home, and smacked a grandmother
around with a shotgun? I believe their shirts said either SWAT or Police in bold
white print and they had caps with shield emblems on them.

I remember hearing about others as well, but none were no-knock.

But it does happen....

If someone comes crashing through my door or window, I'll do my best to send
them back through that door or window.

 

[Janitor]

You have to take into account the "it can't happen to me mentality". This poster isn't targeted at us it's targeted at people that are in condition white.

D##n!

I hate to concede my points so quickly. I keep on losing sight of the fact that we're not the audience. That I find the photo scary by itself doesn't mean the sheep in the house across the street would.

Ok. You're right. Keep it dumb.
-

 

[Herself]

Doc, there's no shortage of clean-cut crooks. I certainly wish telling the baddies from the good guys was always a matter of grooming and deportment, but it's not. And a fellow in a hat behind a bright light, dressed in tactical black, doesn't have to be very groomed to look civilized enough to pass for an officer at first blush.


Optical Serenity: did you read the AP article from the Indianapolis Star I posted to the earlier, related thread? In it, a Detroit LEO testifies to his routinely entering the homes of suspects unannounced and without a warrant. That's the level of abuse of position we're seeing. If the police and judges where you live have more of a clue than that, great; they're not that bad where I live, either. But they are out there; it does happen. The culture of LEOs is no more uniform across the States than culture is in general, possibly even less so.

There is no part of being in law enforcement that makes it ok to get hurt. No one signs up to die or get hurt, regardless of what you may believe.

I don't think it is okay to get hurt -- not the police, and not civilians, either. But just as electrocution and RF burns are a known and non-zero probablility part of my job, "dieing or getting hurt" is a part of yours. We each do what we can to minimize the risk but not all factors are under our control.

Police do sign up to stand between decent folk and baddies. It's not safe work. Perhaps you should have become an insurance actuary instead, if you were looking for something non-dangerous. Our legal traditions and the laws based on them assume the innocence of the accused, which does place LEOs at greater risk than they are in places where the accused are deemed guilty until proven otherwise. There's no getting around it; your suspects are a subset of those you've sworn to protect until proven guilty in court.

Anyone who kicks in my door without warning has put himself (or herself) at grave risk. I don't give a darn if it's Mother Theresa and the President arm in arm with Santa Claus and the local police chief: if they rush me, they will face fire. No-knock raids and home invasions are both based on not giving the subject time to make any but the most hasty of decisions and thus I am not risking being robbed, raped and murdered just to make you feel safer breaking into my house. You've got no right to kick in my door, sworn officer or not.

--Herself

 

[1911 guy]

Several recent threads

Two, I believe, dealt with this same situation in Legal and Political very recently. So it does happen. Optical Serenity may comer from a Dept. that keeps it's house in order, but many in America do not. Between home invasions in disguise and botched warrants, we who are paying attention are worried.

Good poster, Oleg. The only change I'd make has been mentioned, adjusting the lighting so more detail is obscured, only the markings on the hat legible. All else a shadow.

 

[Peet]

(snip)
But there are levels to this. A traffic pull-over, the odds favor it being a real cop,
(snip)
--Herself

Don't be too sure of that...

http://www.masslive.com/springfield/republican/index.ssf?/base/news-0/1123400938185440.xml&coll=1

http://www.masslive.com/springfield/republican/index.ssf?/base/news-0/1123573888149601.xml&coll=1

After the arrest, a couple more folks stepped forward and ID'ed him as the "police officer" that had performed a "stop" on them. Blue lights and all.

This is one town over from me - kinda makes me paranoid. (Of course it's not like I am not already paranoid , this just makes it worse.)

Peet

 

[DunedinDragon]

I don't know ANY police officers (myself included) that have ever wanted citizens unarmed. At least not here in Georgia...but I've been all over the country and haven't seen it. For some reason people here are infatuated with cop-bashing...

Oleg, no offense, but what is your deal with these anti cop posters? Can you please point me to the articles and what not that show how this situation occurs everyday?

Lets start telling people that ANY TIME a person is in uniform, they should question it. They should call 911, call the pentagon, CIA, the Associated Press, and the Interpol, and try to figure out if for sure this person is a police officer. In fact, people should carry around biometric readers in their wallets that prove you are a police officer? I don't get it...

Here's a couple of references for you:

---The legend of Corey Maye---
http://www.theagitator.com/archives/025962.php#025962

--or these---

Minister Dies As Cops Raid Wrong Apartment
By Joseph Mallia and Maggie Mulvihill

A 75-year-old retired minister died of a heart attack last night after struggling with 13 heavily armed Boston Police officers who stormed the wrong Dorchester apartment in a botched drug raid.

The Rev. Accelyne Williams struggled briefly when the raiding officers, some of them masked and carrying shotguns, subdued and handcuffed him, then he collapsed, police said.

Williams, a retired Methodist minister, was pronounced dead of cardiac arrest at 4 p.m. yesterday at Carney Hospital said hospital spokesman William Henderson.

There is a likelihood or possibility that we did hit the wrong apartment, said Police Commissioner Paul Evans at a news conference last night. If that's the case, then there will be an apology.


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Officer, Retiree Killed In Bogus Raid
Sacramento Bee

When Manuel Medina Ramirez, a 63-year-old retired golf course groundskeeper, was routed from his slumber at 2 AM by armed men breaking down the door of his modest Stockton, CA. home, he instinctively reached for his bedside pistol.

Shooting into the darkness, he brought one of the men down; the others returned fire, and Ramirez was shot dead in front of his son and daughter, who had also been awakened.

The armed men turned out to be a Stockton police anti drug team who had obtained a warrant for the house after a friend of the Ramirez family was found with marijuana in his car and gave the police the Ramirez address as his own.

He died not knowing they were police officers, said Maria Ramirez, the victim's 23-year-old daughter. She said that her father had allowed the friend to use his address to get a driver's license.

The officers claim they had identified themselves, but Maria says her father spoke poor English and couldn't understand them. No drugs were found in the house.

These were very quiet people, said a neighbor. I never saw anything going on that could indicate drugs at all.


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DEA Agents Beat Innocent Women In Wrong House Raid
Denver Post

A Colorado woman was hospitalized after eight DEA agents forced open her door, cursed her, and beat her to the ground before realizing they were at the wrong house.

Daniel Thomas, the man they were really after, was later charged with amphetamine manufacture.

The Jefferson County DA has not commented on whether charges will be brought against the agents.

In a letter to the DA, Wheat Ridge Mayor Ray Winger wrote that drug manufacturers must be controlled but not by people who cannot even get the address for the raid correct.


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Akron Drug Squad Busts Down Wrong Door
Akron Beacon Journal

A 32-year-old mom and her three young kids were terrorized when a gang of black-clad men knocked down their front door and rushed into their apartment.

Only when the family was lying on the floor at gunpoint did the mom, identified only as Joyce, recognize the intruders as Akron police officers.

I never heard them identify themselves, Joyce says. All I saw were black uniforms, helmets and guns.

The officers from the Akron Police Department Street Narcotic Uniform Detail shortly realized that the address on the warrant was incorrect.

It didn't look like any drug house, says unit leader Lt. Harold Craig.


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NYPD Terror Raid On Woman's Apartment
NY Daily News

Sylvia Romero, 20, a pre-med student at New York's Fordham University, and her sister Elsa, who is on medication for a nervous disorder, were sprayed in the face with Mace, strip-searched, handcuffed, and made to lie on the floor as 15 plainclothes housing police ransacked their Bronx apartment in a surprise raid.

As I approached the door, they were banging it down, says Romero. I asked what was going on. Through the crack they sprayed me in the face with Mace.

Romero says the officers wore civilian clothes and did not identify themselves.

When she asked what was happening, one cop shouted, Bitches shut the ???? up!

The sisters were dragged from the apartment, sobbing and handcuffed, but were released when no contraband was found.

 

[Fred Fuller]

"Friends" don't kick in your door...

lpl/nc

 

[CAS700850]

Okay, I've bit my tongue for a bit, and I'm stopping. The purpose of the no-knock warrant is the protection of the officers. Why? If they stand at the front door, knock and announce as required, then wait the appropriate period of time, what's the bad guy doing on the other side? Best case, he's destroying evidence. Worse case, he's preparing to repel the attack, loading weapons, taking cover, etc. Worst case, he starts firing through the front door.

In elevn years as a prosecutor, I have authorized 1 no knock warrant, in the case of a crack dealer. Covert video showed an AK-47 type rifle next to the couch by the front door, and the dealer with a pistol in his waistband. Every buy was the same. And, the guy had a prior conviction for Assault on a Police Officer.

If no knock warrants were as common as some might think, judging by these threads, I might be in agreement. But a flat out prohibition isn't necessary, or even appropriate.

Think of it this way. You're in your home when the bad guys come in. You know that they are armed. Should you be forced to leave cover and shout warinings to them? Why should we expect officers to do so?

 

[DunedinDragon]

Okay, I've bit my tongue for a bit, and I'm stopping. The purpose of the no-knock warrant is the protection of the officers. Why? If they stand at the front door, knock and announce as required, then wait the appropriate period of time, what's the bad guy doing on the other side? Best case, he's destroying evidence. Worse case, he's preparing to repel the attack, loading weapons, taking cover, etc. Worst case, he starts firing through the front door.

In elevn years as a prosecutor, I have authorized 1 no knock warrant, in the case of a crack dealer. Covert video showed an AK-47 type rifle next to the couch by the front door, and the dealer with a pistol in his waistband. Every buy was the same. And, the guy had a prior conviction for Assault on a Police Officer.

If no knock warrants were as common as some might think, judging by these threads, I might be in agreement. But a flat out prohibition isn't necessary, or even appropriate.

Think of it this way. You're in your home when the bad guys come in. You know that they are armed. Should you be forced to leave cover and shout warinings to them? Why should we expect officers to do so?

I would tend to agree with you if every jurisdiction was the same, but they're not. Now, if all prosecutors and officers pursuing a no-knock warrant understand and accept that they will be criminally charged by federal prosecutors (since this entails constitutional rights) for any consequences that are a direct result of their negligence in the authorization or serving of the warrant, I'd be much less concerned about them. If they are diligent, as they are in your jurisdiction, they have no reason to be concerned about such a thing. If they're not, then they'd have reason to worry.

 

[1911 guy]

BECAUSE...

These threads have shown (see news articles above) that the police sometimes do not do their jobs in ensuring everything is in order. Every story quoted by DunedinDragon, with bibliography I might add, shows a pattern of slipshod work when serving these warrants. If every warrant were served on the intended party, this would be a non-issue. However, because we are expected to shut up and take it when those with any kind of authority make a mistake, some of us feel a need to speak up.

 

[taliv]

just to clarify...

police are here to protect us, not the other way around. disarming the populace would make it much safer for police, but that's unacceptable. warrantless searches would make their job much easier too.

nobody said it was a safe or easy job. the difficult position we put them in is why they deserve our respect and appreciation.

 

[Henry Bowman]

Why should we expect officers to do so?

With all due respect, Chris, because they are agents of the state and they are not in their home. They are in someone else's home, which is Constitutionally protected from unreasonable search and seizure. They (presumably) are not entering to save a life in jeopardy. They are entering to arrest a person and seize evidence solely for the purpose of charging them with a crime.

The number of no-knock warrants issued may vary greatly in other jurisdictions outside of central Ohio. I have not heard of any problems down here, but I have heard of problems elsewhere.

 

[mrmeval]

Find out what police organizations support HCI.

Cops have the power to kill under color of law and some pretty powerful protections against criminal prosecution that a citizen does not have.

I don't recall one cop locally who killed someone and the case got past the grand jury. The grand jury is controlled by the prosecutor. That is another layer of protection.

We're looking at something good happening here. The Sheriff's department and city police may merge. Since the Sheriff is the highest LEO in the county and elected, a measure of control will return to the citizens if this passes.

If cops names were put on a ballot and a 'keep or kan' mark was placed by them that would at least allow local citizens to take out the trash from time to time. Wish we could do that with all the unelected cruft.

I don't know ANY police officers (myself included) that have ever wanted citizens unarmed. At least not here in Georgia...but I've been all over the country and haven't seen it. For some reason people here are infatuated with cop-bashing...

Oleg, no offense, but what is your deal with these anti cop posters? Can you please point me to the articles and what not that show how this situation occurs everyday?

Lets start telling people that ANY TIME a person is in uniform, they should question it. They should call 911, call the pentagon, CIA, the Associated Press, and the Interpol, and try to figure out if for sure this person is a police officer. In fact, people should carry around biometric readers in their wallets that prove you are a police officer? I don't get it...

 

[ngray]

Cop or Crook?

Assuming that SWAT wasn't clearly visible across the forehead, how about:

My son's friends pulling a prank on him in the middle of the night.
My son pulling a prank in the middle of the night.
My son walking around with a flashlight because the power's off.
Any number of other explainable situations.

I don't see how the SWAT ballcap removes my moral burden to identify my target before shooting. If you're truly concerned about this, perhaps a dog or exterior door-opening chimes are in order.