Dynamic Entries

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Here2learn,

No those questions aren't wacky, infact we make plans to deal with them. I've even had a similar thing to falling through a rotten floor happen to me once. But your questions won't be answered here. Anyone can surf in here and read this thread. That's why Lawdog said this in his opening post:

any discussion about specific tactics either to facilitate or ambush a dynamic entry, and this thread gets shut down.

I'd hate to answer your questions and give someone ideas about how to counter an entry.

Jeff
 
when a mistake is made, both the victims and the police are morally and legally justified in using deadly force against each other. That is a lethal contradiction.
I have made this statement myself--though perhaps not so eloquently.

That sums up my concerns nicely.

Obviously, I'm not concerned with police entering my house justifiably because I take pains to be not only legal, but I do my best to even avoid the appearance of illegality. I am concerned about them entering my house by mistake. NOT because it's LIKELY, but because it puts me in the highly undesirable situation of having to determine if the people breaking into my house are LEOs or home invaders.

Furthermore, I am not concerned about the threat of home invasion because it's LIKELY but because the possible consequences are completely intolerable.

If my house is invaded by a group of professional criminals, I will be at a severe, virtually insurmountable, disadvantage already. To have ANY chance of prevailing against a serious home invasion, I MUST respond as nearly to instantly as I can manage and with all the force at my disposal.

I'll admit that I don't like this solution, but it is the only one I can manage. I WILL respond rapidly and forcefully to a forced entry to my home. The home invaders might kill me, but maybe my resistance will alert someone, give my wife a chance to call for help or to prepare to resist more effectively. If it is a home invasion team that is my best chance at repelling them. If it is a police entry team they'll probably kill me, but at least they won't kill my wife and they certainly won't rape my wife in front of me. (One of the less desirable outcomes of some home invasions.)

Given the "lethal contradiction" introduced by these police tactics, that's the best I can do. I've asked the "experts" for a better approach, but so far this one is still in the lead.
 
Jeff,

It's not that the problem is so widespread, it's just that the consequences of that "lightning strike" are so fatal.... and so freaking predictable and avoidable.

I refuse to accept that, as we were discussing over thar, the collection of evidence for non-violent crimes (I am sure the majority of such raids) really requires such an over the top response when doing it slow and easy is as likely to be as effective with zero chance of fatal mistakes for the (innocent in the eyes of the law) suspect.

Oh no, a little coke gets flushed :rolleyes: , get em next time or get cleverer on how you serve warrants.

Save the hammer for the real nails and I bet fewer people die by mistake on both sides.
 
There's a fairly popular drill that I would imagine everyone here has done at one time or another.

You're on the range with a buddy. You've got a holstered safe weapon, and he's standing 20 feet away from you. At the time of his choice, he rushes you, and you draw and try to 'shoot' him before he gets to you. Usually there's some kind of fake knife involved.

Awake, alert, orientated, aware of the threat, focussed on the threat, in broad daylight, at Condition Red with a draw you've practised a hundred times or more.

Show of paws: How many people manage to tag the 'attacker'? Given the my experience, 98% won't.

The subject of the 'no-knock' isn't awake, he isn't alert, he isn't orientated, he's unaware of the threat, focussing on anything would be a miracle, it's blacker than the Earl of Hell's waistcoat, he's in Condition White and I will guarantee that the critter hasn't ever practised drawing the pistol from whever it may be laying this time.

In training, from the time the ram hits the door, to the time somebody has the subject in custody, 5 seconds is Unsat. No Go. Try again.

here's a question for you, since this is the strategies and tactics forum: you, as a civilian wake at 0 dark thirty to a loud crash followed by indistinct shouts. would you secure your defensive arm and hole up in a safe place with your family?

I would be trying to get out of bed just in time to be proned out. I might have gotten out of the sheets. Brutal truth, but that's the way it is.

Five to ten seconds is an eternity when you've just been violently awakened, but it isn't enough time to 'hole up'.

However, i can't help wondering how it would work in my circumstances. i have a 3-story house, almost completely alarmed, with three dogs. Odds of anyone getting to my bedroom before i'm coherent and well-armed are quite slim.

Texas panhandle, 1997. Serving a search-and-arrest warrant on a subject for multiple local and Federal Charges. One of which is Possession of Child Pornography. We have reliable information that the pornography is stored in such a way that, given time, he can destroy the pictures.

The Feds need the pictures intact, the subject has a violent history, and the subject has Vowed Never To Be Taken Alive Again.

We get a 'no-knock' provision on the warrant.

Assigned house is three stories, alarmed, with two Doberman Pinschers in a yard completely surrounding the house.

While the Feds are getting the warrant, I'm getting a can of starting fluid and visiting with the local Animal Control Officer. Two shots of starting fluid later, I'm in possession of one rickety cardboard cat carrier and groggy occupant thereof.

We stage, we sneak up to the house about 4 in the AM, and the dogs go nuts. I promptly shake the living spam out of the cat carrier and fling the striped occupant over the fence.

He's been gassed, he's got a killer hangover, someone just bounced him all over the inside of a cat box that was too damned small to begin with, and ... oh, look. Here's two mutts.

Stink everywhere. That skunk outdid himself. Dogs screaming, skunk hissing, and the smell was Biblical.

Subject comes running to the door, no doubt expecting the Long Arm of the Law, and immediately decides he knows what just happened. There's the skunk. There's the dogs. It makes perfect sense.

He goes back into his house.

We sneak onto the porch. The dogs bark. We're on either side of the door, and someone is throwing pecans at the dogs to make sure they keep on barking, and soon enough, the subject has had enough, stomps downstairs, throws open the front door, prepares to deliver a thunderous denunciation to the dogs and disappears under a pile of officers.

'No-knock' don't mean ya gotta kick in the door. We just have to be smarter than the critters.

LawDog
 
any discussion about specific tactics either to facilitate or ambush a dynamic entry, and this thread gets shut down.
Explain? I see no mention of this in the Forum Rules. :confused:
 
Telperion,
Read post number 1 in this thread. Those are some of the conditions for this thread being here. Certainly you can understand why it isn't a good idea to discuss such things in an open forum?

Jeff
 
Explain? I see no mention of this in the Forum Rules.
LawDog started this thread, so its HIS toy, not ours. He's just sharing it. And since he's a Moderator, he can enforce his wishes to allow us to play with his toy or not.

Five to ten seconds is an eternity when you've just been violently awakened, but it isn't enough time to 'hole up'
All the more reason to make sure that the portals to the home will take more than a few seconds to breach. Being a light sleeper helps, as does the ability to grab and react in that semi-awake state. Though it does come wtih drawbacks, like dashing about the house carrying the cat box to save it from the train. :D

Like others here, I've no reason for JohnLaw to come smashing into my home at O-dark thirty in the morning. So I have to work on the premise that the goblins breaking down the door are indeed goblins, not cops at the wrong address or working on bad intel.

And no matter what our fellow members who are LEOs say, it DOES happen, all too often. Some departments may have a sparkling record, some (like that of a major city just south of me) do not.
 
I know these Qs are wacky but they are stuff I've been wondering about for a while now.
You're not the only one who has wondered about those questions. Some of the other folks who wonder about them, also plan for them, train for them, and have encountered them, as members of an entry team, but as others have said don't expect anyone to give away tricks of the trade.
 
Jeff- humor me. Are serious technical discussions on hardening your home and repelling boarders generally prohibited in S&T?
 
Telperion,
No, serious technical questions about hardening your home to prevent burglary and criminal entrance are welcome here. Use of the search function should find several threads on those subjects, or feel free to start your own.

Questions about how a police tactical team would deal with instances like Here2learn asked are off limits. Like I said, we think about those things, rehearse options and sometimes they happen and we work around them. But no one in the know is going to talk about them here.

Jeff
 
You're not the only one who has wondered about those questions. Some of the other folks who wonder about them, also plan for them, train for them, and have encountered them, as members of an entry team, but as others have said don't expect anyone to give away tricks of the trade.


Well, how about just the bits about the rotten floor and the geese?
 
OF COURSE le likes no-knocks, it makes their jobs easier, no question about it.

Thing is, prison camps for mexicans and blacks would make their jobs easier too.

So would a GPS trasnmitter embeded in the spine of every citizen at birth.


However, there is a point at which invasion of liberties becomes more important than the ease of the job of law-enforcement officers. The founders of this country understood that well.

'Period.'
 
Well, it went longer than I expected.

LawDog
 
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