Controversial Question! Good Shooter vs. Bad Shooter

[Howland937]

rather be a bad shot then

You and me both.

 

[gwpercle]

Shooting is a ability / skill like playing the piano .
Some folks have the natural , God Given ability and some folks , like me , can sit at a piano all day long and never make music .
I can't play a musical instrument , sing a song or dance ... but the Lord blessed me with the ability to shoot ...
Ever since I was a little boy with a sling-shot ... BB gon or bow and arrow ... I could always hit what I aimed at .
I moved up to shotguns , rifles and handguns ... and it all came naturally ... My Dad said I had the "Knack" for it . Handguns were my shooting pride and joy , I competed in 3-Gun NRA Bullseye Match ( Indoor ) for 15 years .
I never had any formal training shooting and but ... did have a bunch of guitar lessons ... I wanted to play guitar so badly I could taste it ... but those were useless ... I don't have the God Given ability to play music and never will ... I still have my guitar but strumming a few chords is all I can do ...
I'm a shooter plain and simple and it came naturally !
Gary

 

[Mark_Mark]

Shooting is a ability / skill like playing the piano .
Some folks have the natural , God Given ability and some folks , like me , can sit at a piano all day long and never make music .
I can't play a musical instrument , sing a song or dance ... but the Lord blessed me with the ability to shoot ...
Ever since I was a little boy with a sling-shot ... BB gon or bow and arrow ... I could always hit what I aimed at .
I moved up to shotguns , rifles and handguns ... and it all came naturally ... My Dad said I had the "Knack" for it . Handguns were my shooting pride and joy , I competed in 3-Gun NRA Bullseye Match ( Indoor ) for 15 years .
I never had any formal training shooting and but ... did have a bunch of guitar lessons ... I wanted to play guitar so badly I could taste it ... but those were useless ... I don't have the God Given ability to play music and never will ... I still have my guitar but strumming a few chords is all I can do ...
I'm a shooter plain and simple and it came naturally !
Gary

I took me a year to lean to break clay consistently. We talking 3-4 days a week and tens of thousands of shells. Ouch my shoulder hurts.

as for things that I’m natural at.. Wedding Photography!

 

[Mosin77]

I think I could not wring tip top accuracy potential out of a crappy pistol. It’s probably mechanically more accurate than I am, good. Because realistically modern guns are really well made, and modern ammo even of the cheap plinking variety is remarkably consistent. I don’t consider myself a top tier shooter or even close. Strictly an amateur here. I go to the range once a month if I’m lucky. But if we’re shooting at a solo cup at 20 yards I’m often the first to hit it and my shooting buddies (incl. several ex mil) consider me a “good shot.”

But just because I am not technically limited by a not so nice gun doesn’t mean I want to spend my days at the range shooting something cheap and nasty. I’m motivated to try harder if I appreciate the fine piece I’m shooting. Of course there’s a balance there too. A fine piece to me is valued in the mid-high hundreds. When my gun is worth much above 1500, I start thinking if I should really be shooting this so much lest I put wear or a scratch on it… which defeats the whole point of the exercise.

So my feeling is, you don’t need a nice gun to shoot well, but it’s ok to want and enjoy one. A clean, crisp, 2lb trigger on a gun with beautiful machining WILL allow you to shoot better than a gun with a creepy, gritty, 7lb trigger.

 

[mavracer]

Didn't read thru all the responses but the fact that classes exist in competition other than open should tell you that some guys even ones near the top of their game like a challenge.
I shoot in an informal rimfire league that has no restrictions other than rimfire and must shoot unsupported. The league runs 7 weeks per session and is handicapped, there's 3 of us that always finish near the top one of them shoots a Volquartsen all the time, one will change guns but always shoots a target gun with a red dot sight. I'm liable to shoot anything from a Beretta Bobcat to an old Colt Huntsman to a Sig Trailside target with a red dot because I really have more fun competing with myself.

 

[Trey Veston]

Shooting is a ability / skill like playing the piano .
Some folks have the natural , God Given ability and some folks , like me , can sit at a piano all day long and never make music .
I can't play a musical instrument , sing a song or dance ... but the Lord blessed me with the ability to shoot ...
Ever since I was a little boy with a sling-shot ... BB gon or bow and arrow ... I could always hit what I aimed at .
I moved up to shotguns , rifles and handguns ... and it all came naturally ... My Dad said I had the "Knack" for it . Handguns were my shooting pride and joy , I competed in 3-Gun NRA Bullseye Match ( Indoor ) for 15 years .
I never had any formal training shooting and but ... did have a bunch of guitar lessons ... I wanted to play guitar so badly I could taste it ... but those were useless ... I don't have the God Given ability to play music and never will ... I still have my guitar but strumming a few chords is all I can do ...
I'm a shooter plain and simple and it came naturally !
Gary

Same here. I have gone months without shooting (back when I was married and raising a family) and could pick up a friend's pistol and outshoot them with it.

But, I will readily admit that I could be a lot better with some proper training and techniques. The downside of being a natural is that I never felt the need to seek out professional training when I was younger. So any bad habits or improper techniques are hard-wired into my brain and muscle memory.

I did attend Gunsite for my CCW in Arizona way back in 2007, and loved the training on the range. I would love to be able to afford more training at that level, so I could go from a great shot, to a professional-level shooter.

 

[bangswitch]

I consider the S&W M-41 a practical choice. It is superior to an unmodified Ruger (various Marks) or Buckmark and well below the price of a Hammerli or Pardini

I'm a big fan of the High Standard Victor and Citations, but I'm not willing to put up with their magazine issues

My M41 has a much finer trigger than my Ruger MkIII Hunter, less pull weight and a cleaner break. However, I think I could drop the Ruger in a mud bath and it would still run, but the M41 is much more finicky and likes to FTF or FTE if the ammo isn't just right.

I'm not at all a competitive shooter. Not even a good shooter anymore, really, due to declining hands and eyes. I used to be pretty decent.

FWIW, if a handgun fits my hands reasonably well and has an okay trigger, I can shoot it just fine. Maybe if it fits my hands VERY well and has a great trigger, I can shoot it a little better.

That's it. I have cheap handguns and expensive handguns. Doesn't seem to matter. A nice hand-fit and trigger get me up to whatever my personal best level of shooting is, and I can't shoot any better than that. Spending twice as much money doesn't help and doesn't matter.

Like a few others have said, rather than "training intensively" with a specific handgun, I shoot a variety of them. And predictably, can shoot most of them decently as a result.

I'm comfortable I can hit an adult-sized torso at 50 yards with most of my handguns, and at 25 yards hit the chest with all of them. I'm almost 70, eyes are going and I wear bifocals, but I practice regularly, albeit not as often as I'd like. I shot Distinguished Expert in my 20's in PPC as part of my prison's pistol team, and I used a stock 4" M66 (and I shot Service Revolver class). I also qualified expert in Small Arms when I was in the USAF in my 30's. The eyes are going, and I'm not quite as steady with my aim, but I've maintained muscle memory and procedure habits all through my years.

Lots of good thoughts in this reply.

I hear of a carry gun “rotation”. I hear that they mix pistols and revolvers, and maybe other handguns. Get one, learn it, and be content. The money spent on different handguns and holsters, would be much better spent on ammunition and range time.

Kevin

I have a couple I like to rotate, depending on clothing mostly, but sometimes just because. One semiauto and one revolver. I know which one I'm carrying and I practice procedures frequently (drawing and aiming, with dry fire) although I practice instinctive shooting when at the range. I'm as comfortable with a revolver as I am a semiauto and shoot both equally accurately at distances of 15 yards or less, but better past that with the semiauto (the carry revolver is a snubby). Since I mix my rotational carry between a revolver and a semiauto, I feel equally competent with all my handguns, because they are all either revolvers or 1911's/BHP. I try to rotate what I take to the range to practice with each time or take a couple of each type. Since I reload, I always have a selection of any caliber/cartridge I shoot.

 

[film495]

don't know that I'm any good, but generally speaking I don't buy the best of the best of anything, cause it is .02 percent better, but 4,000% the cost. IMHO, those things are for people who don't care how much they cost.

 

[kidneyboy]

Unfortunately that fact leads many folks to the 1911, as it covers up a lot of poor trigger management habits

Curious as to how you came up with this rather backwards logic. The trigger on the 1911 is a feature when it comes to good shooting.
Poor trigger management crosses over to every type of firearm.

 

[9mmepiphany]

Curious as to how you came up with this rather backwards logic.

Teaching and working extensively with clients to break their bad trigger management habits

The trigger on the 1911 is a feature when it comes to good shooting.
Poor trigger management crosses over to every type of firearm.

Poor trigger management does affect all platforms. The 1911 is just the crutch that many folks turn to to cover it up...a perfect example of the arrow vs. the archer

The nature of the 1911 trigger covers up many of those bad habits and leads many to believe that they've overcome the inherent issues. It's easy to prove by simply asking that shooters to shoot a DA/SA or a DAO platform. If they can't shoot it as well, they are lacking trigger management skills and are using the 1911 trigger as a crutch.

It is easy to slap through a sub-two 2lb 1911 trigger and still get good hits on a target. That same bad habit, if applied to many other platforms will result in misses. That is why shooting a DAO revolver improves your trigger management skills when shooting a 1911...but the reverse isn't true

 

[MrChicken]

.
It is easy to slap through a sub-two 2lb 1911 trigger and still get good hits on a target. That same bad habit, if applied to many other platforms will result in misses. That is why shooting a DAO revolver improves your trigger management skills when shooting a 1911...but the reverse isn't true

I understand your point but i believe you are using the wrong example. Slapping through a 2lb trigger on a 1911 means you hit the trigger stop with the force of the slap. That would/could disturb the muzzle and effect the shot. Grip in this case is more important than trigger control. Rob Leatheam used to give the advice of grip it really hard and slap the trigger.

A light trigger means you can press instead of slap with less force on the trigger and this disturb the muzzle less.

 

[JohnKSa]

Just one gun? how, to be content

I don't think people need to restrict themselves to owning only one pistol to achieve unconscious competence.

A person can own a huge variety of firearms, but unless they want to really tremendously increase their training time, they probably want to train with one handgun and just plink and shoot recreationally with the others.

In fact, a person could even train with one general class of handgun (say hammer-fired SA semi-autos with a specific grip angle and a similar manual of arms/control placement) if they really needed to have variety. The training should transfer between guns that are chosen to be similar if attention is paid to the details when choosing the guns.

Where a person is hurting themselves is when they try to train with a variety of very different handguns. Say one day with a DAO striker fired gun that has no manual safety, the next day with a SA/DA hammer fired gun with a safety that is up for fire, down for safe, the next with an SA hammer-fired semi-auto with a safety that is down for fire, up for safe, the next with a DA revolver, etc. A person can acquire unconscious competence with a variety of firearms like that if they spend a lot of time training, but most people don't have the dedication/resources/time for that level of training.

but seriously One Gun… I rather be a bad shot then

None of that has anything to do with being a good or bad shot. If a person has decent trigger control and can see the sights and the target, they can be a good shot with any gun. But there's more to unconscious competence than being a good shot. In fact, being a good shot is just a very small part of it.

Unconscious competence is things like bringing a gun up and having the sights already aligned on the target when they come into view as the gun is brought up. It's getting to the point where the safety is automatically disengaged when it needs to be during the draw and re-engaged automatically before the person starts to holster the gun. It's getting a grip on the gun in the holster without having to think about it. It's being able to do a reload without thinking about where the magazine (or cylinder) release is or how it operates (push in, push forward pull back, push down) , without having to think about where the spare magazine (or speedloader is), without having to slow down to guide the magazine into the magazine well or the rounds into the chambers, without having to think about the location of the slide release. It's being able to control the recoil so that the gun comes back down with the sights aligned as opposed to having to consciously bring them back on target. It's being able to operate the trigger at speed without having to stop and think about not flinching or how far to pull the trigger or how far to let it reset for the next shot.

Poor trigger management crosses over to every type of firearm.

The lighter and shorter the trigger, the more forgiving it is. It is certainly true that a person with bad trigger management will struggle with any firearm, but it's possible to get away with more if the trigger is short and light than you can with a trigger that is longer/stiffer.

Slapping through a 2lb trigger on a 1911 means you hit the trigger stop with the force of the slap. That would/could disturb the muzzle and effect the shot.

Sure it could, but with a very good grip, it might be possible to shoot through the disturbance. Try that with my .22LR SP101 revolver shooting DA and the result will be amusing to anyone watching. The DA trigger is about 13lbs and is very long. Trying to slap the trigger on that gun is just a non-starter.

 

[9mmepiphany]

A light trigger means you can press instead of slap with less force on the trigger and this disturb the muzzle less.

That is the common fallacy from folks who think the 1911 trigger is the "Magic Bullet" to trigger management.

I have taught many clients how to correctly "Prep" a trigger on a stock SIG 226...which isn't the same thing as Staging a trigger... so that the force on the trigger to release the sear is exactly the same as that required on a 1911.

World Class competitive shooter and Champion JJ Racaza teaches the need to prep a 1911 trigger to make accurate shots at everything except very close/large targets. 1911 shooters in the class are often stunned, because it never crossed their mind to do anything except slap through the trigger

 

[243winxb]

1911- Roll trigger or pull through trigger (Russian name in 1970s) has a lot of travel at the same weight. The shooter cant tell when the gun will fire. The trigger is squeezed without stopping.

I modified a Ruger Super Blackhawk in 44 mag with the Russian type trigger. Makes a world of difference, slow fire.


This is compared to the standard type that stacks weight till the shot breaks.

https://www.ssusa.org/articles/2015...wsletter&utm_medium=insider&utm_campaign=1015

Whats most important, sight alignment or trigger control?

A test was done, comparing trigger squeeze by machine, compared to human.
Same person & gun. The machine was the most accurate.

Why, humans tend to stop the trigger squeeze when sights move out of perfect alignment. Then restart.

Accurace is best when the trigger squeeze is 1 continues motion.

 

[Mark_Mark]

1911- Roll trigger or pull through trigger (Russian name in 1970s) has a lot of travel at the same weight. The shooter cant tell when the gun will fire. The trigger is squeezed without stopping.

I modified a Ruger Super Blackhawk in 44 mag with the Russian type trigger. Makes a world of difference, slow fire.


This is compared to the standard type that stacks weight till the shot breaks.

https://www.ssusa.org/articles/2015...wsletter&utm_medium=insider&utm_campaign=1015

Whats most important, sight alignment or trigger control?

A test was done, comparing trigger squeeze by machine, compared to human.
Same person & gun. The machine was the most accurate.

Why, humans tend to stop the trigger squeeze when sights move out of perfect alignment. Then restart.

Accurace is best when the trigger squeeze is 1 continues motion.

Roll Trigger! that sound RIGHT

 

[JohnKSa]

Whats most important, sight alignment or trigger control?

Trigger control. Anyone with decent vision and reasonably steady hands can master sight alignment in one lesson. Mastering trigger control takes constant practice.

Why, humans tend to stop the trigger squeeze when sights move out of perfect alignment. Then restart.

Also, recoil and report can cause issues. The brain really doesn't like super loud noises and abrupt motion in front of the eyes. So it tries to tell the eyes to close and the body to flinch away from the noise when it suspects it is about to occur. It can be difficult to overcome this instinctive reaction. Because it's reflexive, people often don't even realize they are doing it. They just wonder why they had the sights perfectly aligned on target and the shot went astray. They tend to blame the gun. A common flinch involves a blink before the flinch begins, then the actual motion, then the eyes open back up from the blink. Everything happens with the eyes closed so the shooter doesn't think anything happened at all.

 

[243winxb]

When in the zone- "total singular focus on the task or thought at hand with no distractions bearing on the conscious or subconscious mind."

A hot 45acp case may land on you from the shooter on your left, when firing a string of timed/rapid fire. It burns, but not noticed or reacted to till done firing.
https://www.bullseyepistol.com/salyer1.htm.

I was not conscious of position, stance, grip, nor trigger control. I didn't even consciously hear the pistol fire; nor did I feel the recoil.