TexasRifleman
Moderator Emeritus
If someone is gonna carry without a permit, one more law won't really stop them will it?
That's pretty much what the word "criminal" means last time I checked.
Shockingly, criminals don't tend to obey laws.......
Controversy in the Texas Senate with Student CHL
- Thread starter chuck_in_texas
- Start date
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If someone is gonna carry without a permit, one more law won't really stop them will it?
That's pretty much what the word "criminal" means last time I checked.
Shockingly, criminals don't tend to obey laws.......
Double Naught Spy
Sus Venator
So you think that if you have legal CHL students who carry that you are apt to be shot by one? That sounds a bit paranoid. Maybe a little too paranoid to be carrying? Then again, I have no idea just how you interact with your students.
jester_s1
Member
It would appear the original arugment is dead, but the situation does have a few other facets worth discussing. The OP does bring up a matter that is not black and white and there's nothing wrong with conceeding that there are issues. We are better than the anti-gunners who will stoop even to ignoring safety concerns and truth in general to push their agenda. Here are a couple of potential problems I see with college students carrying.
1. Greater likelihood of guns being stolen.
It's a known fact, especially if you live in the dorm, that your life isn't nearly as private as most other people's. If it's known that you have a piece to carry, then the same screwballs who steal your Polo shirts out of the dryer have a much bigger temptation.
2. The intellectual roller coaster.
Maybe it's a small point, but a few deep thinking classes and one's values can change drastically and rapidly. College kids can get some wacky ideas in their heads during those days and one of the reasons that college is a great place for being challenged like that is that it's a safer environment than the real world. Add to that the emotional roller coaster of love interests and rapid life changes and you get a few students who aren't really in control of themselves for a while.
3. Appearrances.
Yes, these do matter. Colleges live and die on endowments and enrollment numbers. If Texas passes this law and enrollment in the state colleges drops by a few percent due to the fallout, then that is a real problem for the school. On a smaller note, the free exchange of ideas that good campuses have is stifled as our liberal fellow Americans head out.
As a side note, Dr. Paige Patterson, president of Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary (my alma mater), has been an avid promoter of on campus carry and, in fact, can occasionally be seen with a Colt SAA on his belt on campus. Several professors carry concealed on campus and Dr. Patterson has been taken a very hard stance pro RKBA and even has spoken in chapel about a man's duty to stop violence, even if stopping it requires the use of deadly force. To date, no one has been hurt and it's generated a lot of free publicity for the school.
1. Greater likelihood of guns being stolen.
It's a known fact, especially if you live in the dorm, that your life isn't nearly as private as most other people's. If it's known that you have a piece to carry, then the same screwballs who steal your Polo shirts out of the dryer have a much bigger temptation.
2. The intellectual roller coaster.
Maybe it's a small point, but a few deep thinking classes and one's values can change drastically and rapidly. College kids can get some wacky ideas in their heads during those days and one of the reasons that college is a great place for being challenged like that is that it's a safer environment than the real world. Add to that the emotional roller coaster of love interests and rapid life changes and you get a few students who aren't really in control of themselves for a while.
3. Appearrances.
Yes, these do matter. Colleges live and die on endowments and enrollment numbers. If Texas passes this law and enrollment in the state colleges drops by a few percent due to the fallout, then that is a real problem for the school. On a smaller note, the free exchange of ideas that good campuses have is stifled as our liberal fellow Americans head out.
As a side note, Dr. Paige Patterson, president of Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary (my alma mater), has been an avid promoter of on campus carry and, in fact, can occasionally be seen with a Colt SAA on his belt on campus. Several professors carry concealed on campus and Dr. Patterson has been taken a very hard stance pro RKBA and even has spoken in chapel about a man's duty to stop violence, even if stopping it requires the use of deadly force. To date, no one has been hurt and it's generated a lot of free publicity for the school.
gc70
Member
This is an elitist argument. In the last century, our country was consumed with one or another segment of the population viewing other segments (whether defined by race, class, or ethnicity) as too irresponsible, violent, or untrustworthy to permit to carry weapons. We have overcome a lot of that elitism in the last couple of decades. With luck, we will eliminate the remaining bastions of irrational fear and hypocrisy in the years to come.
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So, it would be better if the students in the classroom are not allowed to effectively defend themselves against some copycat "school shooter" who decides to get on the news by killing a buch of his classmates?
Remember, the "No gun zone" isn't going to stop him.
Personally, I think if you are *that* afraid of your students, where the idea of licensed permit holders carrying a gun in your classroom scares you that much, you should switch careers to something where you only have to interact with people you *know* can not possibly have a gun, no matter what.
I suggest you teach inside a prison instead. That way you'll know 100% that none of your students could possibly have a gun. That means you'd be safe, right? Because, after all, it's the presence of the gun that makes people violent, right?
WTBguns10kOK
member
Charles, I'm not entirely sure you should carry a gun.
HeavenlySword
Member
Glad to see so much support for this bill
devildog66
Member
Damn! This freedom thingy sure can be uncomfortable. What with havin' to trust people, respect their individual right to self-defense and let them arrive that their own conclusions on self-protection. The OP's points come across as very reasonable sounding at first blush but then when one starts to dissect them it comes down to a lack of trust and respect for the other fellow.
I'll make no analogies to attempt to refute all of the finger wringing concerns. Because in the end it is an individual responsibility for self-defense not just a right. And are our institutions of higher learning not part of building this individual responsibility?
I'll make no analogies to attempt to refute all of the finger wringing concerns. Because in the end it is an individual responsibility for self-defense not just a right. And are our institutions of higher learning not part of building this individual responsibility?
Well, my 0.02. I've thought a lot about this, and I think everyone needs to head over and read the SCCC website. It seems to me that they make a great, logical, case for concealed carry for students.
I can understand how some people would get nervous about this at first, and I do think there are some special issues to work around, but I think the benefits outweigh the perceived negatives by a long shot.
First, some people think that there is one huge drunken crazy party going on on college campuses all the time. I hate to say it, but most of our young adults are a lot more self controlled than that - it's a minority that give the scene bad press, and the problem is compounded by the administrations treating the students like children instead of like the adults that they are (that goes both ways...)
Second, the type of illegal behavior that does happen on campus is controllable. My question is, instead of restricting the rights of adults 21 and older because of the bad behavior of a few, why can't the administrations control the bad behavior to begin with? That's a bad example to set for the students to begin with, and the bad behavior only happens because the administrations are inept to control it. My solution - if you are caught doing something illegal, you're expelled, no questions asked. It worked well in the high school I went to, and one or two people a year provided a good reminder for the rest of us.
(Personally, I don't agree with the 21yo drinking law... it's artificial and I think kids need to be taught to drink responsibly in the home while growing up, but like it or not, that's the law, and students should respect that - if they can't obey that rule, then they really shouldn't be at a higher education institution to being with...)
Third, I think most people use VT and other mass shootings as a reason for CC on campus. I think that's a stretch. If people know other people carry weapons, it may be a deterrent, and it could potentially help control a situation faster. However, a much better argument is all the violent crime that normally happens that gets no press; rape, muggings, assault, stalking, etc. Why shouldn't a young woman (or man) have the right to defend herself while going to and from class? For those of you who think campuses are a safe environment where this stuff doesn't happen, go check out u of chicago, u of penn, etc. There's a Mcdonalds close to u of penn that the students affectionately call mcdeath... When my sister was there, she has at least three FRIENDS become victims of violent crime.
Fourth, for those that fear that CCW folks age 21 are going to have an argument with a prof and snap and shoot them, well, no one has pointed to any stats that show that ccw folks age 21 are any different than the rest of ccw folks, and as a whole, ccw holders have a better track record than police when it comes to bad shoots. As a side effect, maybe the few arrogant professors on campus might be a little more respectful of their students if they thought they could be packing.
The one problem I can see is that of theft - so I think a good compromise would be to not allow students to keep firearms in dorm rooms (they can still carry into dorms, just not store them unattended there), but instead, provide a safe storage area close in the dorms that students could rent. Really, safe storage lockers should be provided in dorms anyway - there are other things than guns that student should be able to secure (passports, important documents, valuables, collectables, jewelry, etc...)
I also think that each campus should have an active competition shooting team and a provide firearm self defense courses.
As a side note, why hasn't a victim of violent crime taken a university or state to court for restricting their ability to defend themselves? I would think that would be an effective way to encourage change...
I can understand how some people would get nervous about this at first, and I do think there are some special issues to work around, but I think the benefits outweigh the perceived negatives by a long shot.
First, some people think that there is one huge drunken crazy party going on on college campuses all the time. I hate to say it, but most of our young adults are a lot more self controlled than that - it's a minority that give the scene bad press, and the problem is compounded by the administrations treating the students like children instead of like the adults that they are (that goes both ways...)
Second, the type of illegal behavior that does happen on campus is controllable. My question is, instead of restricting the rights of adults 21 and older because of the bad behavior of a few, why can't the administrations control the bad behavior to begin with? That's a bad example to set for the students to begin with, and the bad behavior only happens because the administrations are inept to control it. My solution - if you are caught doing something illegal, you're expelled, no questions asked. It worked well in the high school I went to, and one or two people a year provided a good reminder for the rest of us.
(Personally, I don't agree with the 21yo drinking law... it's artificial and I think kids need to be taught to drink responsibly in the home while growing up, but like it or not, that's the law, and students should respect that - if they can't obey that rule, then they really shouldn't be at a higher education institution to being with...)
Third, I think most people use VT and other mass shootings as a reason for CC on campus. I think that's a stretch. If people know other people carry weapons, it may be a deterrent, and it could potentially help control a situation faster. However, a much better argument is all the violent crime that normally happens that gets no press; rape, muggings, assault, stalking, etc. Why shouldn't a young woman (or man) have the right to defend herself while going to and from class? For those of you who think campuses are a safe environment where this stuff doesn't happen, go check out u of chicago, u of penn, etc. There's a Mcdonalds close to u of penn that the students affectionately call mcdeath... When my sister was there, she has at least three FRIENDS become victims of violent crime.
Fourth, for those that fear that CCW folks age 21 are going to have an argument with a prof and snap and shoot them, well, no one has pointed to any stats that show that ccw folks age 21 are any different than the rest of ccw folks, and as a whole, ccw holders have a better track record than police when it comes to bad shoots. As a side effect, maybe the few arrogant professors on campus might be a little more respectful of their students if they thought they could be packing.
The one problem I can see is that of theft - so I think a good compromise would be to not allow students to keep firearms in dorm rooms (they can still carry into dorms, just not store them unattended there), but instead, provide a safe storage area close in the dorms that students could rent. Really, safe storage lockers should be provided in dorms anyway - there are other things than guns that student should be able to secure (passports, important documents, valuables, collectables, jewelry, etc...)
I also think that each campus should have an active competition shooting team and a provide firearm self defense courses.
As a side note, why hasn't a victim of violent crime taken a university or state to court for restricting their ability to defend themselves? I would think that would be an effective way to encourage change...
jester_s1
Member
esquare- very good post. Creative solition on the problem of theft too.
One argument that I see popping up in this discussion repeatedly is the issue of elitism. Everybody is elitist to some degree, using the definition that the posters here seem to be working with. I supervise teenagers on church outings. I make rules that limit their freedom for their safety and to make the outing go well, and I require they be followed. By the judgments I've seen in this thread, that would make me elitist against teenagers, but it would be ridiculous to demand that I not make rules.
Trust has to be earned, and like it or not, groups earn or ruin trust together. The college life could be potentially problematic for concealed carry. As an educator, the OP knows this better than most and to be nervous about concealed carry because of what he has seen in the students isn't an unfair elitism, it's common sense and natural reaction. I'm sure colleges could solve the potential problems and safely allow concealed carry, but to condemn anyone who doesn't advocate full trust for a group that needs more supervision than typical adults as being unfairly elitist is wrong headed.
One argument that I see popping up in this discussion repeatedly is the issue of elitism. Everybody is elitist to some degree, using the definition that the posters here seem to be working with. I supervise teenagers on church outings. I make rules that limit their freedom for their safety and to make the outing go well, and I require they be followed. By the judgments I've seen in this thread, that would make me elitist against teenagers, but it would be ridiculous to demand that I not make rules.
Trust has to be earned, and like it or not, groups earn or ruin trust together. The college life could be potentially problematic for concealed carry. As an educator, the OP knows this better than most and to be nervous about concealed carry because of what he has seen in the students isn't an unfair elitism, it's common sense and natural reaction. I'm sure colleges could solve the potential problems and safely allow concealed carry, but to condemn anyone who doesn't advocate full trust for a group that needs more supervision than typical adults as being unfairly elitist is wrong headed.
BunnyPuncher
Member
As an academic living and teaching in south Texas I wholeheartedly support extending CCW to college campuses.
Firstly for selfish reasons - right now I would either have to leave my weapon at home (leaving me without for the day), in my car (I really do not like doing this - I'd feel horrible if it was ever stolen - likely with the car) or ignore the rule (opening up tremendous liability issues, let alone professional ones.)
Secondly - Many of my off-campus students have the same concerns I do. Many of my students (particularly the state campuses) live in - how should I put it - economically challenged parts of town to which the kampus kops cannot provide for their safety. Yet the same institution is the one that disarms them. These students have a far greater danger in their commute than I do to my pasty white upper-middle suburb.
Thirdly - Rights are hard to acquire and easy to lose. Any 2a victory is one to be celebrated. We'll need as big a cushion as we can get to emerge from the next decade.
Finally - By academic standards of ideology I am a right-wing knuckle dragging fascist who should not be allowed anywhere near children! In the real world that makes me a moderate independent with liberal views on social issues
So perhaps it is a bit immature, but I'd sure like to give the "progs" some heartburn over this. Texas needs to generate some more native profs - you are importing too many burned out hippies from Boston and Cali - I'm a native born Canadian redneck so I fooled em good.
And an additional note: My students are all what I would say to be "good kids". Sure some of them have issues. But the majority are folks I would prefer to see have gun training and being allowed to carry. If I consider only the ones over 21 - solid citizens in my book. Seems to me some here are thinking all campuses are like Berkeley. They ain't.
Firstly for selfish reasons - right now I would either have to leave my weapon at home (leaving me without for the day), in my car (I really do not like doing this - I'd feel horrible if it was ever stolen - likely with the car) or ignore the rule (opening up tremendous liability issues, let alone professional ones.)
Secondly - Many of my off-campus students have the same concerns I do. Many of my students (particularly the state campuses) live in - how should I put it - economically challenged parts of town to which the kampus kops cannot provide for their safety. Yet the same institution is the one that disarms them. These students have a far greater danger in their commute than I do to my pasty white upper-middle suburb.
Thirdly - Rights are hard to acquire and easy to lose. Any 2a victory is one to be celebrated. We'll need as big a cushion as we can get to emerge from the next decade.
Finally - By academic standards of ideology I am a right-wing knuckle dragging fascist who should not be allowed anywhere near children! In the real world that makes me a moderate independent with liberal views on social issues
So perhaps it is a bit immature, but I'd sure like to give the "progs" some heartburn over this. Texas needs to generate some more native profs - you are importing too many burned out hippies from Boston and Cali - I'm a native born Canadian redneck so I fooled em good.And an additional note: My students are all what I would say to be "good kids". Sure some of them have issues. But the majority are folks I would prefer to see have gun training and being allowed to carry. If I consider only the ones over 21 - solid citizens in my book. Seems to me some here are thinking all campuses are like Berkeley. They ain't.
jester_s1
Member
I have to take exception to the mentality that we have to win every battle we can in order to make it harder for the anti-gun types to take away the right we really care about. Logically speaking, that's no different than the way groups like PETA or the Brady Campaign operate. The question shifts from "How should things be?" to "What battles can we win?" I don't think any of us want to be in the same category as those groups in the public mind.
What we pro-self defense thinkers really need to do is look at every question as fairly as possible and then push for the best laws to maintain an orderly and safe society. We do not need to decide as our core value to push for the laxest gun regulations possible, regardless of the consequences to others.
IMO, if the gun owning/using community can show itself to be primarily concerned with public safety instead of maximizing our freedom to do what we want, I tend to think we'll have a better time at preserving those freedoms that make our society safe.
What we pro-self defense thinkers really need to do is look at every question as fairly as possible and then push for the best laws to maintain an orderly and safe society. We do not need to decide as our core value to push for the laxest gun regulations possible, regardless of the consequences to others.
IMO, if the gun owning/using community can show itself to be primarily concerned with public safety instead of maximizing our freedom to do what we want, I tend to think we'll have a better time at preserving those freedoms that make our society safe.
well, on paper, which headline seems better?:
"Crazed gunman kills 32 people before committing suicide; police could not reach shooter to stop him; shooter could have kept going on for several more minutes and killed more"
or...
"Crazed gunman stopped by gun-wielding student; one student dead, died in crossfire between armed student and gunman; if it wasn't for gun-wielding student, entire classrooms could have been slain"
also, Jester: you should really take a look at the Brady Campaign's website. You sound a lot like their 'sensible' policy. They run an agenda against your freedoms. They don't think you should even have a right to self-defense (keep gun locked up and disassembled until a threat is perceived? Do you really want to try and argue with that?). We cannot compromise with them anymore; the fact that the NRA did compromise is how we can so close to pretty much losing most of our gun rights to begin with.
"Crazed gunman kills 32 people before committing suicide; police could not reach shooter to stop him; shooter could have kept going on for several more minutes and killed more"
or...
"Crazed gunman stopped by gun-wielding student; one student dead, died in crossfire between armed student and gunman; if it wasn't for gun-wielding student, entire classrooms could have been slain"
also, Jester: you should really take a look at the Brady Campaign's website. You sound a lot like their 'sensible' policy. They run an agenda against your freedoms. They don't think you should even have a right to self-defense (keep gun locked up and disassembled until a threat is perceived? Do you really want to try and argue with that?). We cannot compromise with them anymore; the fact that the NRA did compromise is how we can so close to pretty much losing most of our gun rights to begin with.
indoorsoccerfrea
Member
I am a college student, only 19, and I have my Handgun permit from IN. I can understand where you are coming from, but I respectfully disagree. I go to a college where we get muggings/robberies 3 or so times a week in the student neighborhoods. Being at a college right next to a city where murders are a common occurrence does not make me feel safe. Would you strip me of my right to protect myself just because it makes you feel uneasy? Do you think about how others feel when you carry? Say some lady in a store sees your carry gun when you reach for something on the top shelf. If she were to tell you that you shouldn't carry because it makes her feel uncomfortable, would you listen? I agree that there are students in college who drink and abuse drugs. However, the vast majority of students are not like that. It is the few addicts/alcoholics who party hardcore that give a bad rap to the rest of us. Similarly it is the few idiotic permit holders who give US a bad rap. Don't try to restrict the rights of the many based on the mistakes of the few. I am a student. I feel the need for protection. I should be allowed my right to defend myself. I am the SCCC Campus Leader for my school, you would be surprised by the number of upright and good people on campuses.
TexasRifleman
Moderator Emeritus
Yes, all the accidental shootings in the states with CCW clearly show this reckless disregard for safety, and the blood is flowing in the streets isn't it?
Yep, think of all the hundreds of thousands of people killed each year by undertrained citizens carrying firearms.
Oh, wait...... uh.... hang on..... that doesn't happen..... How can that be? Oh my GOD. You mean law abiding citizens, mostly untrained, don't randomly kill people every day throughout the nation?
Well we need to pass some stricter laws to do something about these deaths that are not actually occurring. This can't be allowed to not continue. Think of the children!
Do some of you even read what you type before you click <submit>?
could ask you the same question... how many ND threads do we get on THR? those are just the ones that admit they had them.
How many shots are fired by CCW holders in a year?
Come to think of it, has thier been any mass shootings where a CCW holder has stoped it that has not had decent training? I can't recall any. So either every one that was CCW during a mass shooting were well trained, or people that had guns did not use them. Which is more likly?
How many shots are fired by CCW holders in a year?
Come to think of it, has thier been any mass shootings where a CCW holder has stoped it that has not had decent training? I can't recall any. So either every one that was CCW during a mass shooting were well trained, or people that had guns did not use them. Which is more likly?
TexasRifleman
Moderator Emeritus
So you're changing your story again, nothing new there......
You said that it is dangerous for mostly untrained citizens to have guns, yet the statistical number of incidents vs guns owned is insignificant.
Whether or not it's likely that a CCW will save someone is not and has never been the point, yet you are grasping that one?
You are abandoning your original argument since it has no validity at all and moving on to the "well it hasn't actually saved anyone" line.
That one fails as well since you've basically admitted there's no danger.
So, if there's no additional danger, there is no harm. If there is no harm there is no reason NOT to allow CCW by students.
Even the tiniest chance at all that a legally carried concealed weapon might, maybe, on a good day, when the stars align, save one person is enough reason.
It is not necessary to prove increased public safety to allow this, it's simply enough to prove there would not be a DECREASE in public safety.
And given the number of CCW's out there, that is already proven. It's a fact that increases in citizens with CCWs has not resulted in an increase in accidental shooting deaths.
So as usual, you anti's have no arguments other than your "feelings".
Doesn't this make you tired? Go save the spotted tree frog or something where your "feelings" actually matter to the debate. They do not help you at all with this one.
punkndisorderly
Member
What you think of CC on campus tends to revolve around which you put more focus on: students or concealed carry. If you view them as Concealed Carry Permit holders who happen to be students, which is how I view it, I can only see one reason NOT to allow it.
If however, you view them as students that happen to want to carry, you start to envision a bunch of drunken, immature Animal House types with guns. However, I don't really see that as reality. To be a 21 year old college student you have to have al least some maturity to have made the grades and stay out of trouble to get into college and stay there.
I'd be more concerned about some of the 21 year olds that didn't make it to college. There were four 21 year old knucklheads in my CCH class last year. All four were dumber than a box of rocks and immature as all get out. While they could shoot well, the though of them carrying didn't leave me with a good feeling.
The only thing I worry about is armed civilians perhaps flocking towards and active shooting rather than away from it and making responding officers job more difficult and perhaps being mistaken for the shooter.
I also don't think allowing guns in dorms is a great idea since you don't generally get to pick your roommate and security in a dorm situation is minimum.
If however, you view them as students that happen to want to carry, you start to envision a bunch of drunken, immature Animal House types with guns. However, I don't really see that as reality. To be a 21 year old college student you have to have al least some maturity to have made the grades and stay out of trouble to get into college and stay there.
I'd be more concerned about some of the 21 year olds that didn't make it to college. There were four 21 year old knucklheads in my CCH class last year. All four were dumber than a box of rocks and immature as all get out. While they could shoot well, the though of them carrying didn't leave me with a good feeling.
The only thing I worry about is armed civilians perhaps flocking towards and active shooting rather than away from it and making responding officers job more difficult and perhaps being mistaken for the shooter.
I also don't think allowing guns in dorms is a great idea since you don't generally get to pick your roommate and security in a dorm situation is minimum.
twhitson87
Member
- Joined
- Aug 12, 2008
- Messages
- 21
man some people here are vicious! telling a guy his feelings don't matter! harsh! haha but really, as a student legally able to carry, i would prefer the ability to protect myself from active shooters. from the point of view of the teacher in a tough area, it might be a little disconcerting to know that people you're lecturing to are packing heat, but i agree that people in a college classroom are just as likely to be composed and self-restrained there as they would be in any other public area. anyone know why the restriction was placed on educational institutions in the first place? i can understand places where alcohol is sold, but...i'll have to go back and read all the posts if someone already explained this.
TexasRifleman
Moderator Emeritus
Someones "feelings"
There was never any actual rational reason for it.
Not a good basis for lawmaking huh?
jester_s1
Member
The law was based on the very real concern of the image it would create. Feelings yes, but the feelings of parents who pay the bills at the universities.
I'm a bit disappointed at how this thread has developed. So many posts in this thread have dismissed the opposition's attitude as based on mere feeling and therefore invalid, yet so many posts also in this thread use exactly the same tactics- I like to call it the "River of Blood Argument." It's total sensationalist crap coming from either side, IMO.
We who are pro freedom and pro self-defense have an advantage in the argument that I haven't seen used much. That is the fact that we are right! Statistics generally show that armed populaces are safer, that CCW in states that chose to issue permits has generally resulted in crime reduction, and that nearly all criminal shootings are committed by illegally acquired/ carried guns. If we stick to the facts instead of the drama, we might get some respect in the grand scheme of things.
I'm a bit disappointed at how this thread has developed. So many posts in this thread have dismissed the opposition's attitude as based on mere feeling and therefore invalid, yet so many posts also in this thread use exactly the same tactics- I like to call it the "River of Blood Argument." It's total sensationalist crap coming from either side, IMO.
We who are pro freedom and pro self-defense have an advantage in the argument that I haven't seen used much. That is the fact that we are right! Statistics generally show that armed populaces are safer, that CCW in states that chose to issue permits has generally resulted in crime reduction, and that nearly all criminal shootings are committed by illegally acquired/ carried guns. If we stick to the facts instead of the drama, we might get some respect in the grand scheme of things.
TexasRifleman
Moderator Emeritus
In Texas that is not why this restriction was originally put in the law.
When Texas got concealed carry there were many who felt (sorry, that's simply how it was) afraid of this because of the "blood will flow in the streets" stuff. At the time there were not many states going down the CCW road. Florida was really the basis for the data collection, and some people thought that not enough data. Maybe they were right.
So, the writers of the original carry laws put in all kinds of restrictions on where people could carry simply to get the law on the books.
Since then we've removed churches, hospitals, and other places that were originally off limits.
Schools will simply be one more "fix" that should have been in from day one if not for the fear mongering.
Now that the data has shown that having armed law abiding citizens does not harm the safety of the populace in general, those "feel good" policies are being re-visited with cold hard facts, and as long as it's about facts these policies cannot stay in place. Problem is it's clear from this thread and watching the debate unfold that there are many people unwilling to look at this solely based on facts, they still "feel" like it's a bad idea even though it is very difficult for them to explain WHY in a rational manner. They say things like "students will go crazy and shoot their teachers". That's not based on any remote real life data at all, that's pure fear mongering and frankly pretty insulting. They then resort to the "well it's not like it would save anyone's life anyway" argument. This one, being a future act not historical, is easy for them because it's difficult to PROVE it's not true. But, it actually doesn't matter. The chance, however remote, that it MIGHT save someone still overrides the 'feeling' that it is a bad idea.
I remember very well when all this was being debated the first time, and parents that might stop paying tuition was not the reason, nor any other "rational" reason. It simply scared people and some legislators felt better voting for a very restrictive carry law just to 'test drive' things. Now it's time to clean all this up. We recently cleaned up the carrying in a car without a permit, one more "scary" thing that didn't turn out to cause any harm at all.
Then it will be time for open carry, and do away with all this pretending. The FACTS are in and they show that an armed citizenry, trained or untrained, poses no MORE danger to the general population than an unarmed citizenry did. That's reason enough to be done with all this and move on to important things. We have a failing economy and a jacked up border situation. That time is being spent debating this silliness at all confuses me to no end.
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Which, I think is a prudent way to go. Most change is evolutionary. There's nothing wrong with testing the waters, and if we really think about it, the success stories about states adopting ccw speak very highly of the American people - the VAST majority of us aren't violence-loving criminals.
But, I can understand how people get scared about this. If you believe the stuff that hollywood shows in the movies about guns, what the media report, the stuff that gets taught to kids in schools about gun violence, and the info that brady people spread, then you would be really afraid of hand guns. The first time I went into a gun store in the US, I felt like I was committing a crime. In Academy (the store), I had a really hard time asking a clerk if I could look at a couple hand guns --- why? ...and this is me who was taught the constitution, the individual right to keep and bear arms, taught to shoot when I was in 5th grade by my dad, shot sks rifles at a friend's ranch in college... but no hand guns. No, those were bad...
BTW, this is the best rational I can think for open carry. When people don't see firearms being used by upstanding citizens, where else are they going to get their opinions?
So, back to the thread, I can understand people's fears about firearms and particularly carry on campus. But, policy is better formed from facts, and it appears that allowing good people to carry legally isn't all that bad. This would be a revolutionary concept, except that our founding fathers shared this same idea. ... hmmm
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