Conversion cylinder or more spare cap and ball cylinders?

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^ Nobody is recommending "full power magnum loads".

The empirical observation is that many of us have used normal SAAMI pressure .45LC loads in good quality steel framed replicas for thousands of rounds. Stay away from cheap brassers, and be sensible about your handloads.

Note also that Uberti, for example, uses the same frames to construct their open top cartridge conversion revolvers that are proofed for standard SAAMI .45LC loads.

There are certainly the uncertainties about the quality of the frame used, as well as legal liabilities that will ensure that conversion cylinder manufacturers take a position of caution regarding load recommendations. Can't blame them for that at all.


Willie

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................For the OP:

If you decide to go the conversion route give me a shout! I can help ya out.......(feeling poetic today)!

My contact info is in my signature line.
Regards, HH
 
So many misconceptions.

They recommend " cowboy loads" which are a lot slower than full power magnum loads.

BP guns are not proofed for use with smokeless powder.

The cylinder is the pressure vessel in a revolver, not the barrel or the frame. If anything is going to blow, it will be the cylinder because the cross sections of the cylinder geometry are thinner than anywhere else. Reputable conversion cylinders are made of 4150 and 4140 arsenal steel and are proofed for SAAMI spec 45 Colt loads.

I have a conversion cylinder for my ROA's. I don't use it much because it's a lot of hassle to reload. It's neat to have around but it's kind of like holding a hand grenade. And just think of all the work that goes into reloading; you have to clean the brass, resize & decap, clean each primer pocket (or re-tumble again), depending on the cartridge you may have to check case length and shave some off, weigh-up the charges, and seat the bullet.

You don't have clean the primer pockets separately or tumble again. I just rinse out my BP brass and then tumble it clean when it is dry. And I have never, ever had to trim revolver brass, particularly not when loaded with Black Powder. The pressure developed is not high enough to stretch the brass. I have measured it. One of these days I have to throw away that useless case trimmer that is taking up extra room on my bench. If you don't reload, fine. But reloading for Black Powder is not a whole lot different than reloading for Smokeless.

Well, I load .45ACP AND .45 Colt, but the Colt gets loaded on an old Lyman turret where the .45ACP is loaded on a progressive. 15 minutes will knock out a box of .45ACP and that's being slow and careful.

Reason I don't consider .45 Colt is I have a 4 5/8" Ruger Blackhawk in the caliber and I don't think I'd wanna get confused even with my "light loads" for that gun (8.3 grains Unique/255 cast flat nose) and load 'em in the Remmy, a bit much. I'd load BP in colt cases with the colt cylinder. However, my 5.0 grain B'eye/200 SWC standard loads for my Ruger KP90DC would be light enough in the Remmy. I'm kinda swinging back to getting a conversion cylinder. I need to go out in the shop and get an empty .45ACP case and see how much fffg it'll hold. I've got more .45ACP cases because I used to pick 'em up at the range. Now, my range is in my back yard. No more brass or backstop lead supply. Bummer.

I played with loading .45 Colt and 30 grains BP with cornmeal filler topped by a round ball shooting it in my Blackhawk. That was pretty fun and another reason why I don't want a .45 Colt cylinder, be kinda redundant. That Blackhawk is awesome accurate with about anything. It's stainless, so it's easier to clean up. It's kinda pretty with the engraving I had done to it and the Sanbar stag grips, but the BP didn't seem to tarnish anything. I had a stainless ROA for a while, never tarnished, usually cleaned it in the dishwasher. That gun got stolen and I replaced it with a blued ROA, but it's a good shooter.

I load my Black Power cartridges, 45 Colt, 45 Schofield, 44-40, 44 Russian, and 38-40 on my Hornady Lock and Load AP progressive press with a Lyman Black Powder measure on it. I can crank out BP loads pretty quick, almost as quick as Smokeless.

HornadyLLandLymanBPmeasure02.jpg

Labeling what is inside a box of ammo is a pretty good way to make sure the wrong ammo does not go into the wrong gun. Using different color boxes is another good way.

Stainless guns are not any easier to clean than blued guns. That is another misconception.

And I really wish guys would stop cleaning guns in the same dishwasher that cleans the plates their families eat of off.

That's another thing that confuses me. Pressure with a 200 grain bullet at 900 fps (my .45ACP load) is a lot lower than pressure with a 340 grain bullet at 1000 fps (a load I've played with in my Blackhawk). I don't understand the velocity limit thing for these cylinders. My utility .45 Colt load 8.3 grains Unique/255 cast flat nose pushes 950 fps from the 4 5/8" Blackhawk, but I think it might be a little much for the remmy. Too, fired from my 7" .45 Colt TC contender barrel, it's over 1000 fps. Sheesh......

Yes, you are absolutely correct on that score, velocity is no way to define how safe any ammo is, pressure is the only way to state it. For what it's worth, the pamphlet that came with one of my Remmie cylinders specifically states ".45 Colt "Cowboy Ammunition" is nationally available from a number of well known manufacturers. This ammunition is loaded for a maximum muzzle velocity of 750 to 850 fps., and these are the specifications we recommend." Unfortunately there is no official SAMMI spec for Cowboy ammo. (there is no official spec for +P 45 Colt either for that matter). The 1000 fps velocity that has been bandied about on this thread is the maximum velocity allowed in pistols for cowboy completion. It is written into the SASS rules as a guideline for handloaders, but it has nothing at all to do with what velocity spec ammo companies are using for Cowboy ammo. As I said earlier, these cylinder have been proofed for Sammi max loads.

I saved up and bought a Howell's conversion cylinder for my ROA. I shot about 25 shells through it (no safety notch so 5 is max.) and they didn't hit to the same POA. I haven't shot it since. It's not legal for BP hunting so it's essentially a toy that I grew tired of.
I probably wouldn't sell it just in case more governments like the present one get elected by the idiot voters.

Point of impact vs point of aim has nothing to do with the conversion cylinder. It has to do with the velocity and amount of recoil of the loads. Shooting a 45 Colt cartridge is pretty well guarantied to hit someplace else than a 160 or so grain round ball.

I have never seen the attraction of the BP conversion cylinders unless you don't have any cartridge revolvers, but I doubt many of us fall into that category. Presumably you got the BP revolver because you wanted to experience shooting a percussion revolver.

If you want a BP looking cartridge revolver, you can always get one of the colt open tops or factory made conversions. You can often find a used one for around 350 bucks. I have one myself, and that's what I would recommend over a conversion cylinder.

Yeah, as I stated earlier I bought my EuroArms Remmie in 1975. I shot it plenty as a Cap & Ball revolver. I bought it because I was tired of caps falling down into the action of my 44 caliber brass framed 'Navy'. But when the conversion cylinders became available I instantly saw the attraction of using a conversion cylinder in it for Cowboy Action shooting. I was already loading 45 Colt with Black Powder, that part was a no brainer. I bought the gun so long ago that I had long since amortized the investment. I don't even remember what it cost. The conversion cylinder cost $200 at the time. It was like buying a neat new gun for $200. The other one came along with the gun for a very reasonable price. Again, a no brainer and then I had a brace of Remmies with conversion cylinders because we always shoot two revolvers in CAS.



By the way, did I mention how much quicker and easier it is to clean a cartridge cylinder than a C&B cylinder? Particularly if you have several C&B cylinders.
 
I have a new found respect for the three Brothers in arms above!

My favorite misconception is the "you can't (or shouldn't) shoot jacketed ammo in a conversion" with many stating "it will wear out the barrel"...........:what:

This stuff is like Urban Myths that grow and grow on the webbernet (we used to cite "arm chair experts" before the internet but the speed and exponential spiraling growth of these myths is astonishing!

Guys........the "instructions" that come with the conversions are written using terms that they THINK you will understand. Cowboy, Velocity, Lead, etceteras are all acronyms for safety in a litigious society.

Just use common sense:banghead:

Loading one of these conversions is no different than loading any other cowboy style pistol (loading for or buying ammo for that you load into). There are no "magnum" loads available but you can buy PLUS P, and HUNTING loads that have disclaimers all over them saying NOT to use them in older or cowboy or Colt style SAA revolvers. The loading manuals all say the same thing.................makes me wonder if people actually read anymore and if they do whether or not they understand what they read:banghead::banghead::banghead:

Yer pal, HH
 
Ditto...

Contemplating Theur's all night last night. Hoof, ya'll need to work on a front-stuffer. I want my empties to eject when I pull the trigger....


Willie

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Great, informed posts, THANK YOU, especially Mr. Driftwood! I'm still thnkin' about that conversion. I've decided I don't really need anymore BP cylinders. Why? Well, I have 3 for the Remmy, 3 for my '51 navy, and one in the ROA. If I wanna shoot and load 'em up on the dining room table, hell, I can just load for the three guns. AND, I have a .31 and a .22 NAA supercompanion if I wanna load EVERYthing the night before.

The conversion cylinder for the '58 still intrigues me, though. :D I have bookmarked Mr. Hoof's site for future use depending on what I decide. I still thing if I get a conversion, it'll be .45ACP just because I sold my 1917 and don't have a revolver in the caliber, or that's yet another reason for the .45ACP. :D
 
We'll slap me silly and call me Shirley! Imagine the nerve, I say the NERVE, of someone coming on this forum and saying they follow the manufacturers recommendations and enjoys shooting C&B revolvers the way they are designed and proofed for.

I say men, I mean I really SAY, what a dang naive fool I am. I am hard pressed to think of times when a shooter has used full power 45 Colt loads (950 - 1,000 fps ) in SASS matches. Oh I'm sure it's done but they are not to popular with their loads beating up the steel targets and bullet splash back.

No doubt, I say NO DOUBT, like 45 Dragoon says I just had better quit shooting. I mean, I said I MEAN, this naive fool brought his Conversion Revolvers in 44 Colt just for a little bit more steel around the chambers.

Yep just another lost soul shooting guns the way they are designed not the way I want them to be.
 
^^

Hoof has more experience with these than the balance of the rest of us combined. He's working with Mr. Kirst on a regular basis, and has installed hundreds of the conversion cylinders. His advice, which parallels the observations of myself and many others, is that the modern 4130 steel conversion cylinders are as strong as the cylinders in any modern factory SAA clone proofed for SAAMI standard .45 LC pressures. Obviously you should stay within you own comfort level, but experience has showed that use of standard .45 LC loads is safe and effective. Many of us hunt with these revolvers, and cowboy action loads are just not what we use. I do not shoot SASS matches... I do shoot hundreds of .45 LC cartridges a year thru a pair of 1858 Uberti-Remmies and nowadays I'm in the middle of shooting up several ammo cans of .45 ACP full house loads thru a Pietta 1858-Remmie with a conversion cylinder. All three revolvers are healthy and happy.

Best,

Willie

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BSA1,
(I'd feel funny callin ya Shirley)
1. The recommendation from the manuf. I follow is the less than 1,000 fps. rule.
2. I don't shoot SASS so I don't hold my shooting to their limitations.
3. I said you shouldn't shoot THEM (meaning the full factory rounds) since you feel the need to shoot "cowboy" loads.
4. And, I am shooting MY guns the way they were designed AND the way I want them to be.
Not trying to make enemies here, just trying to help someone better understand the abilities that conversion cylinders bring to the gun enthusiast. After several times being told that reg. factory loads were fine, I didn't see any reason to keep pushing the issue.

By the way, Did anyone ever tell you that you sound like Foghorn Leghorn?


45 Dragoon
 
45 Dragoon,

Surely you can feel free to call me Shirley.

No offense taken and you are showing your age remembering Foghorn Leghorn.

I didn't know the Conversion cylinders are so popular outside of SASS and that they hold up so well with normal 45 Colt loads. Always seems a bit expensive way for a cartridge gun for Cowboy Shooting.

I guess I should be more trusting of what I read on the Internet.
 
Not just any info, just ours !!!! ;)


Those conversions are VERY popular . . . . . everywhere.


I'm a long time reloader so shootin (fer now) still cheap enough. That's the other reason fer using the 1000 fps thing. That's info I can understand and do.

I don't own an open top that doesn't have a Kirst in it. They are awesome !!!

Gotta get one for a new Walker now so . . . . future fun awaits !!!!

Glad yer here BSA1 !!
 
I don't see a whole lot of practical uses in a conversion cylinder - except in one of the peoples' republics where you can't own a cartridge revolver otherwise.

HOWEVER, I do admit that I could appreciate an 1860 Army conversion.....as long as it had the recoil shield relieved for a reloading gate, and the rammer replaced with an ejector rod. It just has a certain "Steampunkt" look about it that is somehow alluring.

Good thing I always seem to spend my mad money before I get enough together to buy the parts!
 
I don't see a whole lot of practical uses in a conversion cylinder - except in one of the peoples' republics where you can't own a cartridge revolver otherwise.

HOWEVER, I do admit that I could appreciate an 1860 Army conversion.....as long as it had the recoil shield relieved for a reloading gate, and the rammer replaced with an ejector rod. It just has a certain "Steampunkt" look about it that is somehow alluring.

Good thing I always seem to spend my mad money before I get enough together to buy the parts!
This is why I love the USA and freedom of choice!
You can have what you want (me I have dozens and dozens of 'em)!
 
I don't see a whole lot of practical uses in a conversion cylinder - except in one of the peoples' republics where you can't own a cartridge revolver otherwise.

HOWEVER, I do admit that I could appreciate an 1860 Army conversion.....as long as it had the recoil shield relieved for a reloading gate, and the rammer replaced with an ejector rod. It just has a certain "Steampunkt" look about it that is somehow alluring.

Good thing I always seem to spend my mad money before I get enough together to buy the parts!

CAS shooters find them quite useful for the sport they engage in.
And aside from that, I'd say they're just as useful as my 10/22. Most of the shooting I do with it is very informal recreational shooting.

If I had one, I'd load it with a moderately usable .45 Colt load (which doesn't take much, because .45 Colt starts out pretty capable) and carry it hiking.
 
I'd just as soon buy a SAA except in the case of the 1860. Those lines are just too beautiful not to shoot one. I can see the reasoning for the conversion there. However, I think for the cost of the basic revolver, then the conversion, one could buy a factory conversion cheaper. I think......
 
jgh,
I would tend to agree with you but I will say, I bought two 1st mod Dragoons new and put Kirst Konversions in them and set them up as cart. guns only (not as convertables) . After "fixing" the Italian end of the weapon, I have what I think most folks would call a "perfect" set up S.A. !! I also think this is the only way to get a converted Dragoon or Walker for that matter. The '60 I converted was one i had had for about 14 yrs so didn't mind spending the bucks to make a new ( and useable since I dont shoot BP anymore) beastie !! It's all worked better than I had hoped !!!!

Wouldn't trade both (or either) Dragoon for a Colt S.A.A.!! They're that good !! Easy to shoot, bigger parts (easier to work with), I used tighter tolerances for a very solid gun. Barrel/cyl. gap of .002 or less, 2 lb. trigger pull, 4-4 1/2 lb. hammer pull, can shoot all day, bring home and wipe um down and put um up !!

45 Dragoon
 
I already expressed this once but as they say, there's an arse for every seat!
I like to park mine on conversions, hence the business I have...........

Of course I also have a 600 HP diesel truck, 52 MPH 84 Volt Electric Golf Cart, 72" lawn mower and an Indian Chief. Oh and about a hundred converted cap and ball pistols!

HH
 
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