Conversion cylinders, part 2

Status
Not open for further replies.
T

Third_Rail

Member
Joined
Jan 10, 2004
Messages
4,979
So I've been thinking about getting a conversion cylinder for range use, but I can't decide if a Kirst with a loading gate is worth the extra $90 over the R&D conversion.


What is your experience? Is it worth the extra money for a range toy? Will I forever be unhappy having to break down my 1861 to load the cylinder?
 
You might want to email R&D and see if they make any at all with a loading gate. They may and simply not advertise it or may have plans to do so.

But kirst is the only one with a gate and ejector kit that I have seen.

I know that I am happy with the R&D RM conversion that I did to my 51.
But then I still have plenty of bp guns to shoot with.

If you don't want to have to buy two cylinders to facilitate rather quick reloading, a gate is the only way to go.

With a 51/61/60 you're always in the position of droppimg a wedge out, wasting time and adding tension, but replacing the cylinder by slipping one off then on is easy enough.

The 58 pretty much stays together, as you know, and the only iffy part is gettin the dropin just right every time to get the pin to align.

There ia a penumbra of borderline cases as to which is a faster reload, and why, probably too many variables to make a cogent generalization.
 
Well, the extra $90 would allow me to reload faster, but that's about it. I'd have to cut the frame, making it a cartridge firearm in the eyes of the BAFTE, whereas if I use the R&D I can still make it back into a BP revolver...

I'd still love more opinions of those that have used them.
 
If you have a Remmy, once you get the hang of switching cylinders then the dropin is as easy as the C & B cylinder to drop in and go. I went ahead and am making all three of mine full conversions. as I like them that much. Mine are Kirst with the ejector assy, but only one is gated. When I'm done 2 of the three will be gated. Maybe some day I'll buy a gated recoil ring for the one that isn't, but right now the ungated(I did Port it) works as well as the gated one.

I suspect that the gated type in a Colt open top would be the way to go, so you don't have to tear the pistol down every time to reload. That , to me would be a real drag. Just as it was to swap out my first Conversion cylinder and recoil ring to reload. that lasted about a week, then it was Dremel time, 'cept I didn't have one and used rattail files to port my first Remmy.
 
Well, as much as I'd actually like to not have to take the barrel off to reload, I think I may not be able to justify the extra $90 just for a range toy... There must be a way to make the reloads without too much trouble at the range/losing the wedge. I might have to put a hole in the wedge and run a cord to the pistol or something!

EDIT: What about a cheaper source than River Junction for the 1851/1861 conversion cylinder with the loading gate? I haven't found anywhere else that carries them.
 
Personally, I'd definitely go drop in sans loading gate and keep the BP capability and save money on the purchase to boot. It ain't THAT big a deal to pull the cylinder out at the range for reloading, at least in a Remington. I do it with my NAA mini revolver all the time.

If I didn't already have a bazillion cartridge guns, I'd get a .45 conversion for the Old Army. It's a strong frame and could take some stiff reloads I reckon. However, I own a Blackhawk in .45 already, love the gun, extremely accurate, strong, 4 5/8" barrel for easy carry, and all stainless. I got loads for that thing that equate to .44 magnum, only with a bigger, heavier bullet for field use and a 255 grain cast flat point load for range and general purpose that puts five shots under an inch at 25 yards. It is an impressive revolver I doubt I could match with a Remington conversion.

IOW, if you REALLY want a cartridge gun, buy one. If you just have a bunch of BP stuff and wanna convert one and don't care about BP capability and don't have a good big bore cartridge gun already, you might want the loading gate. If it's just an accessory as it would be for me, go for the drop in. It sorta depends on your situation and what you want, I reckon. I've got single actions in .357 magnum and .45 colt as well as my Old Army and .31 cap and ball guns. I have DA revolvers in two in .22LR, several .38 special, one in .357 magnum. Then there's the autoloaders, several in ..22, .380, two in 9mm, .45ACP. So, you see, I'm pretty flush in the cartridge thing, why I'm not real hot to get a conversion right now. If I got one, it'd just be a neat accessory to my gun, not to take the place of BP. I wouldn't want a permanent mod and I wouldn't tell the ATF about it....shhhhhhhhh!
 
Getting a conversion cylinder is cheaper than buying a whole new pistol - not to mention I really like this one. I've done lots of work to it already, and it's my personal favorite out of everything I own.
 
Since you're talking about a conversion for a 61, your right that its a little cheaper. I would suggest that you get the drill pilot. They claim that you can send it back after you use it. You will need the drillbit and tap unless you have the right size handy. That adds about 100 to the purchase.

Its my understanding that there is a real difference between Kirt and R&D in the way the cylinders are made. It seems that Kirst makes the chambers flat and parallel, while R&D angles them inward somewhat.

What does this mean? That the angle of entry to the forcing cone is slanted in the R&D models. I have heard that some people have used an 11 degree reamer to help this out.

I do not know if this is only for the 45's or if it is done as well for the 38's.

Is that 61 cut for a stock?
 
So, has anyone had a huge problem in getting the timing correct for the R&D or Kirst gated conversions? I've heard everything from them being drop in after getting the gate sorted out to they won't work no matter what. What, if any, adjusting needs to be done?
 
the extra $90 just for a range toy...

You know what? For as much as we kid around with these things and ideas...
these "toys" will kill a man just as dead as anything else.

and if'n yer a good shot... he can have all the full autos he wants and they ain't gonna save him...

I keep that 51 next to me on the nightstand...

funny though, one night something happened and I opened the drawer under it and jerked out that 5.7.... hmmm... conceptual inertia?
 
I'm not worried about the angled chamber - many revolvers have that, whether the owners know it or not! It's so slight as to not matter to me.

I happen to have a #35 extension bit, and a longish 6-32 tap here, so I guess even buying the drill fixture (which I may just make) and the R&D gated conversion kit, I'll still come out ahead of the Kirst. I'm just worried about having to make adjustments to the revolver to get it to work properly with the cylinder.

And yes, my 1861 is cut for a stock. Won't matter much, though - it's only got a 3.5" bbl!
 
the timing correct for the R&D

No problems here... now

I found out that the recoil was loosening that screw that keeps the gate on. The screw faces the cylinder. What I thought were timing problems turned out to be that if the screw loosens even a little, it hinders the cylinder's turn. (by catching on the brass)

It acted like this: It was easy to get the gun in battery if it was pointed down, but not up and eventually it wouldn't go when level. It was just that screw, it needs to be on the recoil shield side.

Blue locktite fixed it.
 
yes, my 1861 is cut for a stock

Then dremel the loading groove very slowly running your finger over it to test for heat. Don't let it get hot, just keep it warm or you'll be hardening that frame. R&D claims that missing metal is important and requires you to anneal the metal as you go along.

I don't buy it. Just don't get in a hurry and you'll be just fine.

I used cold blue on the groove after that. Perma Blue.

There's a picture of it in Cartridge Conversions

(won't let me upload a pic here cuz its already somewhere else here)
 
I didn't think that was the case, either. Didn't make sense to me, as the frame is almost the same as the models without the small cutouts. That tiny bit of metal missing doesn't seem like it'll allow the frame to heat up (like I'll be cutting quick!) enough to harden it.

I'm going to guess that after I do this conversion, I've got to keep any 1861 stocks far, far away from this pistol or be in violation of the 1934NFA for "constructive intent"?
 
Only if you go trolling for trouble with it down main street at high noon.:what:

After all, it IS a reproduction of a PRE-1898 Firearm.

You didn't manufacture the pistol nor the shoulder stock. The original MFR did that.
 
By that logic, a short barreled rifle isn't illegal - afterall, they made the hacksaw and the rifle! :what:

I'll just get rid of the stock for now and get the conversion cylinder.
 
Fine!
Send the stock to me. I'll modify it to use with my Euroarms '58 Remmy's.:neener:


Your Pistola is not a Short Barreled Rifle, it is a Replica pistol of a pre-1898 firearm(original conversion) with a shoulder stock attachment. You have no criminal intent! Your intent is to convert a C & B to cartridge which legally you may do to your own pistol. You modify the frame of your pistol.

Apples and Oranges
If you cutdown a rifle or shot gun to less than 18" bbl. you are in trouble. If you port your C & B pistol
you are not. As for the stock, not intent, except to shoot it at targets and such, no intent to commit mayhem.


BTW it isn't logic it is Law. Read the Pre-1898 Firearm law. Something about ...replica thereof,...and .....readily available ammo in NORMNAL CHANNELS OF TRADE. I handload my Ammo as I can't buy it at my gunshop or Wally World.
 
Hm. I suppose... I'll have to write the BATFE about this and get a letter in writing.
 
I like conversion black powder pistols for one reason alone. They're different. I don't want to have a Smith and Wesson just like everyone else, or a Glock just like everyone else. I want people to look at my gear and get curious.
 
Cylinder fitting

I have done a few cylinder moves to get two cylinder revolvers, both the R&D conversion in three Ruger Old Armies, extra C&B cylinders for same, a Ruger Blackhawk and a couple of S&W's.

While timing may sometimes be an issue, the more common problem is getting the end space, end shake, and cylinder/barrel gap correct.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

L
  • Locked
Safety of Conversion Cylinders
Replies
8
Views
2K
unspellable
U
C
  • Locked
Conversion Cylinders
2
Replies
25
Views
8K
unspellable
U
B
  • Locked
Which conversion cylinders for Remington 1858?
Replies
7
Views
831
TomADC
TomADC
W
  • Locked
Looking for Conversion Cylinder Pix (1858)
Replies
0
Views
470
Wwalstrom
W
N
  • Locked
Kirst Conversion for 1858 Remington
Replies
4
Views
4K
Mike 56
M
Back
Top