Convert a cap and ball revolver to shotgun??

[Tallbald]

OK. Let's think outside the box, and look at what Taurus has done with the Judge series. I know of folks who enjoy shooting .410 revolver "skeet". Could a beater cap and ball Remington repro be smooth bored if the barrel was corroded beyond saving, to create a dedicated fun-gun shot-revolver? Would a card wad make the jump at the cylinder gap? Just early morning thoughts maybe, but such a gun, if safe to shoot, could fill a niche I think. Don

 

[Carl N. Brown]

To load shot in a cap'n'ball, the cylinder would have to hold powder, wad between powder and shot, a shot charge and a wad over the shot. My 1858 remington clone does not seem to have the chamber space for a significant shot charge. (Maybe a 1847 Walker could be converted for shot.)

There is also the problem with multiple shot charges in a muzzle loader of the overshot wad "creeping" under recoil. It is bad enough in a double barrel muzzleloader with recoil of one barrel loosening the charge in the other, but with a multiple shot revolver, sealing that overpowder wad securely could be a problem.

 

[Pops]

I've loaded my '51 for shooting yellowjackets.
10g GOEX 3f, full cylinder of Grape Nuts cereal, and a beeswax plug
Works great out to 'bout 8 ft.
With the 10 gr load, absolutely no recoil, no problem with the wax plug.
Beautifully clean bore ofter a 'hunting' expedition.

 

[robhof]

Pops, that sounds like what I need for bunble bees. Currently I have to take a tennis racket to get the mail, they apparently nest in the wood post that holds the mail box. It's neat to hear the thonnggg when I make connection, but a bang would beven neater.

 

[Pulp]

I loaded some #8 shot in my Walker with low powder charge and a Wonder Wad over the shot. I've got a shotgun popper target, put a bottle of water on the flipper and tried it. I managed to put a few shot through the bottle.

It's fun, but a lot of trouble, and the shot spreads mighty fast. Drilling out the riflleing would help some, but would it be legal?

I like the idea of the GrapeNut load. That sounds like fun.

 

[Carl N. Brown]

Modern cartridge handguns must have rifling. Smoothbored for shot, they are classed as NFA Title II AOWs, shot pistols, requiring a $200 tax to make & register and a $5 tax to transfer registration.

Muzzleloaders using tradition ignition systems including cap'n'ball are not subject to the NFA as I understand it.

 

[ElvinWarrior]

Carl,

That's all well and good, however, in some jurisdictions, converting a pistol into a shot pistol may be considered to be illegal, even if it is based upon a black powder, exempt design. Modifying the gun, in any way, can, in some instances, invalidate the exempt status of the gun, and may, as is the case of shot pistols, actually violate the law as an illegal weapon.

I would thoroughly check out the local laws and regulations before I went ahead with a project of this kind, the last thing I need is to be pulled over by some hot shot cop for a tail light, or some such bogus non-sense, have him see my shot pistol in the back seat, and end up in cuffs, with my car and my guns impounded !!!

For example, lets say you came across a double barreled old time cap and powder shotgun at some garage sale. You decided, to saw off the barrels to about 10", and cut off the back end of the stock, converting it into a pistol. A pistol, that would be similar to a Howdah hunting pistol... Seems okay right??? Well, no, it's not okay, because the gun was not made as a Howdah, it was made as a full length shotgun, and modifying it does just that, it transforms the gun into something else, something, that alot of jurisdictions would classify as illegal.

Just my two cents...

Sincerely,

ElvinWarrior... aka... David, "EW"

 

[Carl N. Brown]

Tennessee is one of the jurisdictions that defers to federal regulations on NFA: as long as you are complying with federal law on machineguns, short barrel shotgun, short barrel rifle, silencer, etc., Tennessee has no further restriction.

Other states may have further restrictions. Last time I checked, ATF allowed import of "traditional ignition system" (matchlock, flintlock, cap'n'ball) muzzleloader shotguns shortened below the SBS limits (18" barrel, 26" overall), but not similarly shortened cartridge shotguns or in-line muzzleloader shotguns. Some local jurisdictions may not allow such guns, or those that allow them might not allow an individual to modify a shotgun below the limits themselves.

It does always pay to check and see if there are local restrictions.

 

[BCRider]

Seems to me that, aside from any legal issues, a short barrel with no choke would throw the shot in a rapidly spreading pattern that would make it all but useless to anything other than hand tossed birds at reasonably close range.

 

[72coupe]

In the 1980s I loaded my Lyman 58 Remington with a small charge of black powder a 45 caliber gas check, fill the remaining cylinder space with #12 shot and sealed it with another 45 caliber gas check.

I usually loaded only 2 or 3 cylinders as I only used it for running off stray dogs. I only shot at them at ranges I was sure the small shot would not damage them. It worked great.

I never patterned it.

 

[Voodoochile]

Years ago I used to load 2 chambers of my Pietta 60' Army with:

15gr. FFFG
cereal box cut for a over powder wad, then compress the powder charge.
15gr #8 shot with a cereal box wad over top.
Then wax over that to seal the chamber.

Made for an effective snake & rat load out to about 7 or so yards.

A Dragoon would be a better solution too being the chambers could probably take 25gr. powder & shot loads.

 

[FIVETWOSEVEN]

Under federal law, BP Guns are not firearms and the NFA laws apply only to firearms. State laws may vary.

 

[4v50 Gary]

Do check what your state law says about black powder muzzle loading firearms.

Perhaps the best gun (if there is a best gun) suitable for the conversion is a Colt based firearm. By switching out the barrels, you can go from shot-pistol to pistol. Of course, this would entail placing the barrel into a lathe and reaming it smooth. The alternative is to neglect cleaning the pistol barrel after shooting it with genuine holy black. After a few years, vigorous scrubbing with a stainless steel brush will help remove or wear down a lot of the lands. Then again, a metal rod with a cut down the center to hold emery paper could accelerate the process. Arggh, we're going from black powder enthusiasts to kitchen table butchers. Forgive me Lord!

 

[Nicodemus38]

what you CAN do is simple

get a black powder revolver that has teh ability to get a cartridge conversion cylinder in it. get a cartridge cylinder and load up shot shells.

what i mean is, get that 12 inch barrelled 1851 navy that uses a .454 diameter bullet, get a cartridge cylinder for a 1851 colt navy that uses 38 caliber cartridges, and combine the cylinder on the barrell.

that way you will have SOME way to combat the rifling. but you will still have some issue with the rifling but the barrell itself SHOULD act as a choke tube.

 

[arcticap]

That's all well and good, however, in some jurisdictions, converting a pistol into a shot pistol may be considered to be illegal, even if it is based upon a black powder, exempt design. Modifying the gun, in any way, can, in some instances, invalidate the exempt status of the gun, and may, as is the case of shot pistols, actually violate the law as an illegal weapon...
... A pistol, that would be similar to a Howdah hunting pistol... Seems okay right??? Well, no, it's not okay, because the gun was not made as a Howdah, it was made as a full length shotgun, and modifying it does just that, it transforms the gun into something else, something, that alot of jurisdictions would classify as illegal.

Can you provide us with an example of one jurisdictional law where this is true?
I'm curious about how such a law would read.

 

[4v50 Gary]

It doesn't fall under Calif. Penal Code S. 12020(c)(1) which defines short barrel shotgun as:

"[A] firearms designed or redesigned to to fire a fixed shotgun shell that has a barrel or barrels less than 18 inches in length or an overall length of less than 26 inches..."

That the converted pistol is still a muzzle loader and takes a percussion cap makes it lawful in California. Check also the definition of "firearm" under California law. The exceptions to "firearm" include federally defined "antique" firearm... It's on page four of this document in the Calif Dept. of Justice website: HERE

 

[arcticap]

Thanks 4v50 Gary.
I realize that generally it's unlawful to convert a firearms receiver into a short barreled muzzle loading shotgun because once a firearms receiver, always a firearms receiver, and it would need to meet firearms regulations since it wouldn't technically be classified as a muzzle loader.
But I've never heard of any legal problem with shortening a smooth muzzle loader barrel to any over all length.
That's not to say that there isn't a law regulating it somewhere but I would like to be able to read about it if such a beast existed.

 

[Tallbald]

Didn't mean to stir up a nest folks. Just looking for a way to salvage an abused and pitted cap and ball revolver that that needs love and attention. Thought a fun little shotgun would be a way to go, sort of like the reproduction Lemats. Don

 

[Lunie]

I'm curious why there would be any need to modify a front-stuffer handgun.

Sure, the rifling wouldn't help the shot pattern, but with such short barrels, I don't see how much harm a little rifling could really do...

If'n I were wanting to do this, it would probably just be loading powder, wad, shot, and then another wad to hold it all in.

 

[goon]

To me, the need to shoot a shot load from a percussion handgun screams of being the perfect excuse to buy a Howdah!

There are lots of smoothbore muzzleloading handguns around using both flintlock and percussion ignition, and your Remington was never a "firearm" anyhow according to the ATF. I don't see how having it bored out to smoothbore could be illegal. Another option might be to have the barrel bored out and reline it with a rifled tube. Track of the Wolf sells rifled barrel liners in various calibers. It's worth a shot if you're attached to the gun.

IIRC, Kirst is making a .22LR conversion for the Remington. I wonder if you couldn't lay hands on that cylinder arrangement, install a .22 liner, and have one hell of a cool 1858 Remington plinker!

 

[4v50 Gary]

In hindsight, there will be so little shot in a revolver loaded with shot that it would only be good for snakes at close range.

 

[ElvinWarrior]

Why convert anything at all? Why not just buy a Howdah, a Howdah look-alike or a double barreled flintlock 20ga smoothbore right out of the box?

Why fuss around with fooling around with converting one thing to be another thing?

If it is the 6 shot capacity that is an issue... Well, although I don't know if people do this as a regular type of thing, but I see no reason why someone couldn't come up with a home made paper cartridge shot load setup. By using a shot shell liner, and gluing a strip of flash paper at the bottom, forming a tube, adding in the powder, and twisting or folding the ends over, creating the charge portion of the paper shot cartridge. You could then, also, wrap a layer of flash paper around the plastic shot retainer portion of the shell, fill it with your shot, and again, either twist or fold the paper over to hold in the shot. If you don't want to use the plastic shot retainers, I am sure there are available from various pyrotechnical supply houses online, various sizes of thin cardboard tubing that would either be the right size, or, a little oversized and could be easily trimmed down to the proper size. (Just a thought on this one, I have never made one of these myself.)

Something like that would be very quick loading I would think, negating the need for a six shooter conversion altogether.

Sincerely,

ElvinWarrior... aka... David, "EW"



Howdah Look-Alike, retails for $399.00



20Ga Double Barreled Flintlock Pistol, Retails for $425.00



Single Shot Blunderbuss Pistol with folding knife blade, Retails for $299.0



9 Shot LeMat Revolver with 20 Ga under barrel that serves as the cylinder pin. Retails for about $850.00 to $1,100.00 depending on where you shop.

 

[ElvinWarrior]

To the posters wanting examples of jurisdictions that specifically forbid the use of converted or modified to become shot pistols...

I have no specific example of law, my concern was one of "may be a legal problem"... I did not say that I definately knew, as a fact, that a modified gun, modified to become a BP shot pistol was definately illegal in some places. I did not say that, because I do not know that to be a fact. But, it is always best to research any project involving guns, laws are being passed and changing all the time, and it's hard to keep up with them sometimes.

It was not my intent to confuse the issue at hand, it was only my intent to urge a little restraint, do a little research, and be sure that what you are doing will not end up being a problem to you.

Sincerely,

ElvinWarrior... aka... David, "EW"

 

[goon]

In hindsight, there will be so little shot in a revolver loaded with shot that it would only be good for snakes at close range.

I've never tried shot loads in a BP revolver, but I did just load some .38 Special shotshells last week using Speer shot capsules.
I loaded mine with #12 shot because that's what I had. I found that any farther than 10 feet away they are next to useless. At six feet I got a really good pattern. I think the rifling is the major culprit, but the small amount of shot certainly doesn't help.

 

[goon]

Why convert anything at all? Why not just buy a Howdah, a Howdah look-alike or a double barreled flintlock 20ga smoothbore right out of the box?

Why fuss around with fooling around with converting one thing to be another thing?

The OP is trying to restore a gun he has into something functional.

Didn't mean to stir up a nest folks. Just looking for a way to salvage an abused and pitted cap and ball revolver that that needs love and attention. Thought a fun little shotgun would be a way to go, sort of like the reproduction Lemats. Don

Another option might be to have it rebarreled and get a new cylinder, or have it rebarreled and permanently converted to .45 Scofield or .45 Colt "cowboy" loads. I think the Remington Barrel just screws into the frame so it would seem that it could be unscrewed and replaced without too much difficulty, or possibly lined with a .375" liner and used with a .36 caliber Remington cylinder.